Author Topic: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread  (Read 116555 times)

Dandy J

  • Rising Dragon
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #360 on: March 01, 2013, 07:25:22 PM »
So now were down to citing specific discrepancies and placing value on completely ridiculous things? Iori down c wont hit any range that kim st.b is effective from, I dont even have to boot up the game to see that. And I dont even know why youre trying to downplay air ex qcb+k. Your example with kyo is makes no sense because kyo, or anyone with an anti-air, when on the ground, is not in a vulnerable position that gives them offense when the opponent is passive. We're talking about a situation (jumping in) which is an action that carries risk normally, then having a move that can circumvent that risk, also (this is the important part) being an option that no other top tier has access to.

Hwajai yes has great short-term lock down mostly because of his jab. Still doesn't have the range of st.b, once he gets to that range he uses st.d, but then using st.d gives the opponent a chance to escape since its - and you won't catch a jump-out without waiting or guessing. He has cd which is + but slow start up. He has the burden of having to use more options than kim to keep you in place. kim can just hit d, if the opponent jumps or does nothing he has the advantage again, which is beat by mids, but this puts you at risk since you don't really want to hit those kinds of buttons in these situations in general. Hwa qcb+d is + but it can be rolled on reaction with no risk. In this area I think hwa is more dangerous but kim has better tools.

Shen I agree with, obviously since I think he is in the same tier as kim.

And lol ralf and leona? Yea they got their stuff, everyone in the game does, but if ralf and leona are better than kim in the ways he is strong, then where are all the ralfs and leonas? If you want to step into reality for a moment, kim is a proven tournament character. Even more proven than claw iori, especially after the first 9 months. Early on no one used kim and claw iori was very common, but as the game evolved, these characters went on opposite paths. Players got better at defense, controlling space defensively, air footsies and keeping iori out, and those skills made a character like kim better and better. Look at the finals for any hilevel tournament, evo, any majors with socal 4 kings or cafeid or top french, and count how many claw ioris you see in the top 8 or top 4 compared to kim. Kim is simply safer and more reliable, more able to control the match in every way.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 07:27:15 PM by Dandy J »

Reiki.Kito

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 1432
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #361 on: March 01, 2013, 08:34:49 PM »
I like the discussion here. It's actually a discussion with facts and application of real-life events over known knowledge of the character.

I'm not going to claim to be a Kim expert, but he has a lot of tools to attack and defend himself with meter. He's just as irritating to deal with as Shen except Shen doesn't have as fast of an overhead as Kim and can't go into HD from it (I think).

One thing I'd like to add that was kind of brushed off was st.B being -6. Normally, because of how far it reaches, it's not a big deal. But you literally have to give up pressure with how far it reaches at some points. At it's max range, you can't really link anything but ff+A. That's 3 d.Bs into st.B as just a link. 2 d.Bs or less, you can punish it with (realistically) a character with a long horizontal 5F move. Even if it requires meter, punishing is still punishing.

Characters off the top of my head that can punish it with just normals is Daimon and Terry. Their st.B reaches really far and is 4F. With Daimon, he can just grab you with his qcb+B command roll and canceling that into command grab.

Terry could only go into a significant punish with meter, but you can hit them into qcb+B to start pressuring them now.

Again, that's about as far as I know without any meter, but some supers are fast enough to tag him. Like Maxima's EX Double Vapor Cannon or Kyo's EX Orochinagi. Just the thought that if someone's aware of it, they'll punish you for upwards of 350 for 2 bars is a little unsettling.

Crimson_King15

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Are You okay? BUSTA WOLF!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #362 on: March 01, 2013, 09:46:35 PM »
So now were down to citing specific discrepancies and placing value on completely ridiculous things? Iori down c wont hit any range that kim st.b is effective from, I dont even have to boot up the game to see that. And I dont even know why youre trying to downplay air ex qcb+k. Your example with kyo is makes no sense because kyo, or anyone with an anti-air, when on the ground, is not in a vulnerable position that gives them offense when the opponent is passive. We're talking about a situation (jumping in) which is an action that carries risk normally, then having a move that can circumvent that risk, also (this is the important part) being an option that no other top tier has access to.

Hwajai yes has great short-term lock down mostly because of his jab. Still doesn't have the range of st.b, once he gets to that range he uses st.d, but then using st.d gives the opponent a chance to escape since its - and you won't catch a jump-out without waiting or guessing. He has cd which is + but slow start up. He has the burden of having to use more options than kim to keep you in place. kim can just hit d, if the opponent jumps or does nothing he has the advantage again, which is beat by mids, but this puts you at risk since you don't really want to hit those kinds of buttons in these situations in general. Hwa qcb+d is + but it can be rolled on reaction with no risk. In this area I think hwa is more dangerous but kim has better tools.

Shen I agree with, obviously since I think he is in the same tier as kim.

And lol ralf and leona? Yea they got their stuff, everyone in the game does, but if ralf and leona are better than kim in the ways he is strong, then where are all the ralfs and leonas? If you want to step into reality for a moment, kim is a proven tournament character. Even more proven than claw iori, especially after the first 9 months. Early on no one used kim and claw iori was very common, but as the game evolved, these characters went on opposite paths. Players got better at defense, controlling space defensively, air footsies and keeping iori out, and those skills made a character like kim better and better. Look at the finals for any hilevel tournament, evo, any majors with socal 4 kings or cafeid or top french, and count how many claw ioris you see in the top 8 or top 4 compared to kim. Kim is simply safer and more reliable, more able to control the match in every way.


1. Yes claw iori can hit st b with cr c because of the range and the speed... It's a 1 frame punish iori can also punish it with super or st b of his own. Don't tell me about a character that I main because you're definitely gonna lose this debate. Also you're nuts if you think the game has evolved to where claw iori is less of a threat. You can't out air footsie a character who has godlike air footsies like jump b, jump d literally arches his foot over other moves and he can bop other characters going into the air throwing out moves or he can arch his foot over some anti airs, he has a fast hop speed with a great angle on it.

Also that's cute that you think you can keep iori out with 1-2 bars claw iori can get into anywhere.lol

2. Kim is safer than iori when most of Iori's moves have more frame advantage or less disadvantage than Kim's lol

3. Claw iori is still making top 8 and wining tournaments look at bala, tc yoshi, lacid, and plenty of Japanese players nuff said. But what Kim's have you seen when a major lately? I believe the correct answer is none

4. Ralf... Bala (seconds), fixel (mains), and madkof seconds him. Ralf is played more than you think especially in japan but hey maybe I'm the only one who pays attention to ibg YouTube channel

5. Leona another character getting used more and more. Her normals have crazy advantage projectile game is amazing and once she has you in the corner he has a legit 50/50 at any time thanks to her instant overhead which is also cancelable for huge damage. You should learn about characters before you speak on them

6. Ralf better block strings, great meter building ability, air dive punch is safe at all times and is super cancelable, instant air overhead, great footsies, strong normals, ex's that make up for his weakness, ex super with armor and invincibility on it and about a 3-5 frame start up, stun combos that aren't difficult and amount to massive damage, moves with giant hitboxes that stop you from just randomly progressing forward, a sweep that lowers his hit box drastically, cancelable jump jab, cancelable air blow back, a blow back that moves him forward and is relatively fast.


7. No other top tier can reduce the risk of jumping? Lol

Benimaru can change his jump angle in 3 or 4 different ways whileeeee putting a hitbox on the screen that can make you hurt yourself for trying to AA him.lol

Hwa jai can also by air dping himself to the ground

8. Cafeid members play Kim for national pride... You'd know that if you watched their stream when that was explained.

But most also play claw or flame iori as well :)

« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 09:51:21 PM by Crimson_King15 »

The Fluke

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #363 on: March 01, 2013, 10:25:49 PM »
Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.

Crimson_King15

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Are You okay? BUSTA WOLF!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #364 on: March 01, 2013, 11:01:08 PM »
Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.


Ill have to test this in the lab but, as far as I know without meter it's not being punished.

Inspectah Ed

  • New Challenger
  • *
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #365 on: March 01, 2013, 11:28:36 PM »
Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.


Ill have to test this in the lab but, as far as I know without meter it's not being punished.

Yeah,you have use meter to punish it...the only way I've done it was to use a meter to guard roll after the second hit of the Blitzkrieg Punch and he lands right beside you for the free damage........I never thought about using a Neo-Max against it unless he was the anchor on the team.

Crimson_King15

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Are You okay? BUSTA WOLF!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #366 on: March 02, 2013, 12:25:40 AM »
Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.


Ill have to test this in the lab but, as far as I know without meter it's not being punished.

Yeah,you have use meter to punish it...the only way I've done it was to use a meter to guard roll after the second hit of the Blitzkrieg Punch and he lands right beside you for the free damage........I never thought about using a Neo-Max against it unless he was the anchor on the team.

That's a massive waste of meter is why. You don't wanna just use Neo max and burn up 3 bars and all your drive for punishes early on or mid way through a game

Running Wild

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
  • Osu!
    • View Profile
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #367 on: March 02, 2013, 03:06:05 AM »
But what Kim's have you seen when a major lately? I believe the correct answer is none

Quite a few actually.

Luis Cha used Kim @ SoCal Regionals, he placed in 3rd. Lacid took 2nd at Seasons Beatings, he also had Kim on his team. There was also some Kim @ World Game Cup. Poongko was using Kim, and MadKoF is still using him as well. There was also Northeast Championships with 2 Kim players in Top 8, along with Canada Cup. All recent majors.

BTW, EX Iori was present far more often in Top 8 than Claw Iori.

Crimson_King15

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Are You okay? BUSTA WOLF!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #368 on: March 02, 2013, 04:40:11 AM »
But what Kim's have you seen when a major lately? I believe the correct answer is none

Quite a few actually.

Luis Cha used Kim @ SoCal Regionals, he placed in 3rd. Lacid took 2nd at Seasons Beatings, he also had Kim on his team. There was also some Kim @ World Game Cup. Poongko was using Kim, and MadKoF is still using him as well. There was also Northeast Championships with 2 Kim players in Top 8, along with Canada Cup. All recent majors.

BTW, EX Iori was present far more often in Top 8 than Claw Iori.

Once again madkof uses Kim out of national pride not just simply because kim is good.

Poongko I'm assuming did the same.

Also flame iori and claw iori have both been in top 8 a lot. Someone should tally some numbers

Running Wild

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
  • Osu!
    • View Profile
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #369 on: March 02, 2013, 06:16:42 AM »
They use Kim cuz of national pride AND he's good.

I mean, seriously, this is Kim. He's good in every game he's in. It's impossible for him not to be good.

It's the same deal with Iori in every game he's in.

I'd argue Benimaru as well.

Crimson_King15

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Are You okay? BUSTA WOLF!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #370 on: March 02, 2013, 02:51:21 PM »
They use Kim cuz of national pride AND he's good.

I mean, seriously, this is Kim. He's good in every game he's in. It's impossible for him not to be good.

It's the same deal with Iori in every game he's in.

I'd argue Benimaru as well.

Well with beni's move set its next to impossible to make him bad! Lol

Running Wild

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
  • Osu!
    • View Profile
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #371 on: March 03, 2013, 08:10:35 AM »
Well with beni's move set its next to impossible to make him bad! Lol

CvS2.

 :(

Crimson_King15

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Are You okay? BUSTA WOLF!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #372 on: March 03, 2013, 10:32:33 AM »
Well with beni's move set its next to impossible to make him bad! Lol

CvS2.

 :(
Talking Snk main series games only... But cvs2 was very dark place... Filled with top tier horrors

Even akuma is butt outside of his elemental aka mvc2



Dandy J

  • Rising Dragon
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #373 on: March 04, 2013, 12:43:15 AM »
you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.

selfReg

  • Scion of Flame
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Plateau of Invincibility
    • View Profile
    • Squirrel UK
Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread
« Reply #374 on: March 04, 2013, 02:02:27 AM »
both MadKOF and Tokido used Kim in WGC just this weekend for what it's worth.
KOFXIII: N-Robert, Ryo, R2 Takuma