Topic: SF4 & The FGC - The Effect and Onwards

[fujifujifujifuji]

SFIV helped revive the FGC.

Now now, you're giving SFIV too much credits. Let's say SFIV never came out, would it means that the genre is doomed? KOF XII was already under development, so did Blazblue. Heck, with all the questionable things Capcom "standardized" in the fighting game development with SFIV, and later on MVC3, I am beginning to question if it might actually be better had SFIV never came along. The FGC never needs reviving, they'll always be those hardened, badass souls who enjoys 2D or 3D pugilism more than anything else.

For me, fighting game is zenith of gaming genre, dwarfing all other lesser escapist games. It takes a special kind of guy to enjoy the thrill of battling against fellow human beings, a fighting game is a proving ground, during the most intense moment you can tell a man's tenacity, determination and cunning. There's no other people here, just you and your opponent...in winning you are elated and proud, in defeat you are angry and defiant.

Man....what a drama eh?

I do get tired of people calling games like KOF, BB, GG, and AH as "anime games" or as SFIV and Marvel 3 as "scrub games".

Too bad that's the view of the majority of people, so you can tell we got a long way to go. But whatever they call it, at least they enjoyed some of the games.

[Saitsuofleaves]

The FGC wouldn't have died, no.  But as much as people would hate to think about it, SF4 existing has helped more than it hurt.  If not for that, I GUARANTEE, we wouldn't even have XIII most likely.  KOFXII (if it would stay the same) would come out, bomb, and with the lack of a market, SNKP would go on with their actual plans to stop creating FGs.

Streams, heh, might as well give up on those.  Sponsorships?  Not to the volume we have now.  MK probably continues to have no clue how to fix itself.  

All that there would be left would be Blazblue MAYBE, Tekken and Soul Caliber.  SNKP would be done, Capcom would just focus on other mainstream crap, NRS would fail to make a decent MK9 probably causing them to give up as well.  Hell, there's no guarantee that ArcSys continues on.

You're right, SF4 not releasing wouldn't have killed the FGC, hell there'd be no noobs, you'd be enlightened.  But ask yourself this...is it worth losing all of the above, on top of likely getting a better chance of getting older, possibly better or at least more beloved games rereleased?

[marchefelix]

You both make good points. However, I have a problem with the FG scene being portrayed as something fragile that can be wiped out by one bad move. I'm pretty sure it's not something that's done intentionally, but that's how I think people see the FG scene. I don't think it's fair to say that this one genre is in danger of being abandoned completely just because other types of games are selling better on the market.

[Saitsuofleaves]

You both make good points. However, I have a problem with the FG scene being portrayed as something fragile that can be wiped out by one bad move. I'm pretty sure it's not something that's done intentionally, but that's how I think people see the FG scene. I don't think it's fair to say that this one genre is in danger of being abandoned completely just because other types of games are selling better on the market.

The scene would live on, that's part of the point I was trying to make.  Yeah, it would, but without SF4, we'd lose out on a decent amount of solid games that have come out in the interim.

[Tyrant292]

Well, cant really add anything here. All of you made good points. Yes' if it were not for SFIV the FGC would not be as big as it is, yes the FGC would die as easily as some people think but we cant give all the credit because some of the things it introduced are just bad. The thing is I couldn't agree more with Saitsuofleaves on

The scene would live on, that's part of the point I was trying to make.  Yeah, it would, but without SF4, we'd lose out on a decent amount of solid games that have come out in the interim.

Personally I don't think KoF XIII would come out if it wasnt for the success of SFIV because non of the other games did really good until SFIV came and brought that much attention with it. Yeah the FGC won't die but waiting for a decent game (maybe for you guys, you waited from KoF XI; I waited from 3rd Strike to get a game which I could compare the quality with which is KoF XIII. I didnt know KoF XI back then.)

EDIT: maybe I am too extreme but thats what I think atleast; I could be wrong.

[Mr Bakaboy]

The FGC wouldn't have died, no.  But as much as people would hate to think about it, SF4 existing has helped more than it hurt.  If not for that, I GUARANTEE, we wouldn't even have XIII most likely.  KOFXII (if it would stay the same) would come out, bomb, and with the lack of a market, SNKP would go on with their actual plans to stop creating FGs.

Streams, heh, might as well give up on those.  Sponsorships?  Not to the volume we have now.  MK probably continues to have no clue how to fix itself.  

All that there would be left would be Blazblue MAYBE, Tekken and Soul Caliber.  SNKP would be done, Capcom would just focus on other mainstream crap, NRS would fail to make a decent MK9 probably causing them to give up as well.  Hell, there's no guarantee that ArcSys continues on.

You're right, SF4 not releasing wouldn't have killed the FGC, hell there'd be no noobs, you'd be enlightened.  But ask yourself this...is it worth losing all of the above, on top of likely getting a better chance of getting older, possibly better or at least more beloved games rereleased?

I think you might be giving SFIV too much credit as well. Let's go back. 2006 sounds about right. Back then xbox 180 still had quite an online community. Problem was the online played beyond shitty. Capcom vs. SNK 2 had a decent fanbase, but if you thought any fighting game on the 360 has bad netcode then you ain't seen nothing yet. SF Anniv was even more popular with the SF 3rd Strike matches always jumping and even Hyper SF2 Anniv had enough people to get matches in from time to time. In SRK the online matches were probably even more talked about then, then they are now. True the famous people are talked about more, but you would have the top online players talking back and forth with each other and the other players always going back and forth nagging about this match or that match. When it really comes down to it SF 3rd Strike didn't really get ultra popular till the online community got a hold of it whether this or PC communities. Capcom was alive and thriving cause of online games.

The SNK community wasn't doing so bad compared to now. Back then KOF '03, and SVC lasted at least a year after release community wise before a significant slowdown happened. Sam Sho V, KOF MI, and Capcom Fighting Evo only lasted a few months, but that's par for the course for non popular fighting games now. Thease were considered the bad titles! On top of all of this Dead or Alive 2 was also being played a ton so the 3d community was well represented during all of this as well.

In came the 360. First came DOA 4 which sold like hot cakes. IT was a platinum title in no time flat. Street fighter II Turbo was the community breaker though. A title, which technically had already been released was selling like crazy and people were going nuts over the inproved netcode and quarter matches. This truly ushered in the fighting game boom IMO.

Let's just say Ono went to the bosses and they said we don't have a fighting game development team now and we don't want to subcontract SFIV to DIMPS. Where does that leave everything?

SFII HD Remix would still come out. It STILL would have sold like crazy, but what of Capcom now. IMO more then likely they would have make more HD remix titles. Alpha 3 and Marvel 2 would have been likely choices since a lot of it was not used cause making new 2.5D games are easier then respriteing & rebalancing their older titles. I think if we had more HD remix titles the community would still go nuts. There was a huge clamor for the HD titles after HD Remix was made.

As for other companies. Tekken 6, Blaz Blue, Soul Calibur IV, were already in the making. The game changer might have been KOF XII. My bet would be we would have never seen a rushed version of what we got if Playmore didn't panic. Also the simplified fighting game system would have never happened. What we would have got is something closer to XIII. Same characters (hackers already proved they are supposed to be in the game), game system close to the same as XIII without HD mode (did feel thrown in to me), same rebalanced system. IMO this would have gotten a lot more hype if it was XII, and wasn't lumped into a lot of new titles.

Main point I am trying to get across is the online getting powerful enough and having more options really fueled the online community. Not SFIV. Though it did get a lot of credit to get fresh blood in, the blood that woudl have stayed with fighting games would have probably have came in through another game eventually.

[LouisCipher]

Hard to say what the FGC would be like without SF4. Probably wouldn't have had nearly as much exposure. Of all the fighters to come out in SF4's wake they really don't utilize Comeback Mechanics and easy mode bullshit, at least to the degree of new Capcom fighters.

But I don't think XII came out to ride Capcom's coat tails. I think SNKP rushed it out because they realized 'Oh shit, we spent over 10 million and we're still not done. We need some quick cash!' and that definitely hurt them, they probably didn't recoup very much.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Alright fine, fair enough then.  You're right on this, I was blind.  I give SF4 too much credit.

Maybe everyone's right, maybe it shouldn't have come out and Capcom should've just stayed the company that only released older titles.  That way Capcom fans would've been happy and true FGers would be happy with less watered down new games.

I concede my point.

[sibarraz]

If weren't for SF IV we will not see that much of an advance from the last years, I mean, you must tell that there was a big difference before and after SF IV

Even DOA wasn't as comparable, since even though was a semi popular launch game, the mainstream exposure wasn't nearly as much as SF IV.

At the same time, the FGC would have grown up, but the actuall support that has gotten the last years would never had happened without that game, which leads to some more opportunities

[Mr Bakaboy]

Hard to say what the FGC would be like without SF4. Probably wouldn't have had nearly as much exposure. Of all the fighters to come out in SF4's wake they really don't utilize Comeback Mechanics and easy mode bullshit, at least to the degree of new Capcom fighters.

But I don't think XII came out to ride Capcom's coat tails. I think SNKP rushed it out because they realized 'Oh shit, we spent over 10 million and we're still not done. We need some quick cash!' and that definitely hurt them, they probably didn't recoup very much.

Personally if they wanted to make quick cash, it would have made more sense to continue to release old titles. KOF XI would have made the most sense. Plus they were supposed to release NGBC right away. Instead of releasing those titles they paniced cause Fatal Fury Special and Samurai Shodown II didn't sell what they wanted to. Nevermind we were all looking for the newer titles. So, to them, it made more sense to rush KOF XII cause of the hype SFIV was getting though I'm sure being low on cash helped the decision. Personally I think they thought the hype wouldn't last and wanted to release something during it's apex rather then too late. Without SFIV you're looking at a more stable market that would more then likely increase slower, but very steady. It wouldn't look like SFIV is going to be the best it's going to get. Giving them more time to finish and more incentive to release easy money titles in the mean time.

[sibarraz]

the rumour that I keep hearing is than SNKP don't wanted to take some advantage of SF IV to rush XII, they did it because they aready were outsourced and needed some quick cash launching whatever thing they had at the moment, I'm sure that at some point they knew that the game will flop hard

[Proto Cloud]

You people still don't understand the impact of SFIV. Much like what Satsu said, the community just wouldn't be the same. It revitalized the FGC unlike any game, like BB, Tekken, GG, KOF, SC, VF and so on. This was the right game at the right time. It revitalized a genre that was struggling because the games were getting way too advanced and had no clear focus. As much as people love talking about the "glory days", a lot of games had a lot of archaic systems (that we still do have and should change) and weren't cutting it for audiences anymore.

For better or worse, SFIV blew up our community, because if not, 3D fighters would have still reigned supreme, 2D fighters would be niche curiosity and basically be a continuation of the early 2000s.

[Mr Bakaboy]

the rumour that I keep hearing is than SNKP don't wanted to take some advantage of SF IV to rush XII, they did it because they aready were outsourced and needed some quick cash launching whatever thing they had at the moment, I'm sure that at some point they knew that the game will flop hard

Again if they are looking for quick cash, it's cheaper to put KOF XI or NGBC on the system. They are already made and only needed an online system. They were looking at the SFIV phenomenon would only last a short while so they needed to get their big name game in there before they lose the window of opportunity to make the most amount of money. If it was just money pushing them then making a boss character quickly would not have been that big of a deal. They released a game without any boss character that only had 6 stages. They could have at least had the bosses for teams being other teams like Street Fighter Alpha but didn't bother with that either. It screams of rushing to make a deadline, not rushing to make the most quick money.

You people still don't understand the impact of SFIV. Much like what Satsu said, the community just wouldn't be the same. It revitalized the FGC unlike any game, like BB, Tekken, GG, KOF, SC, VF and so on. This was the right game at the right time. It revitalized a genre that was struggling because the games were getting way too advanced and had no clear focus. As much as people love talking about the "glory days", a lot of games had a lot of archaic systems (that we still do have and should change) and weren't cutting it for audiences anymore.

For better or worse, SFIV blew up our community, because if not, 3D fighters would have still reigned supreme, 2D fighters would be niche curiosity and basically be a continuation of the early 2000s.

Nobody is arguing the FGC would be the same w/ or w/o SFIV. SFIV made it's impact and many games started looking at it as the template to make the most money. Dumbing down fighting games to get the new blood in made more sense to the companies then making games for the hardcore crowd.

What is being argued is the FGC would be alive, and doing quite well without SFIV. Now do I think the FGC would be as mainstream as it is? No, however this is a double edge sword. Personally I think we are now on the down slope of this push in the FGC.

We are already seeing too many games being released too close to one another, causing very good games to be pushed to the way side to play more popular titles. Games like KOF XIII and Soulcalibur V are losing their online communities in a matter of a couple of months. Both titles are highly acclaimed, yet cannot sustain their communities. Even Street Fighter x Tekken is not as popular as Super Street Fighter IV was 1 year after release, and we are talking about a game that just got released. On Arcade mode with request match open I can go a match or 2 without anybody coming in during the afternoon. I find it next to impossible to go half a match with the same parameters in SSFIV at 5 in the morning.

The community is starting to get tired of dropping $50 - $60 for a game then x amount more on DLC every few months a new game drops. More then likely the community will only get worse as this continues. Remember Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is coming soon and it is a tag game with 1/2 of their cast the same cast that's in SF x TK. Do you think that will go over well with a community that is already tired of spending so much money? Not to mention Tekken x Street Fighter coming sooner or later. If SFIV came out I don't think the DLC would be as ridiculous as it has become and we would still be on the upswing since we would have never have had that giant spike of interest in the FGC. The newer games would be more spaced out and the older titles, which would be the majority of the games being released rather then the $60 games with DLC that go $15 to $20 more at least, would only top out at $15 where most would be around $10. Very affordable for people wanting multiple titles while still giving you enough money to save up for the big release once or twice a year.

[solidshark]

I'm in agreement with a lot of Bakaboy's thoughts, especially on the future. Where everything is going now is starting to worry me. I would be better for most fighters involved if some would release next year. This year, I've got VF5FS, GGXXAC, DOA5, TTT2, and maybe SG and CC on release, on top of XIII, and a backlog of a few other fighters. The bubble is close to bursting as is, and people coming in because of all the new fighters released might think the genre is starting to die out next year if the hype has died down and people are just playing.

On the effect SF4, like others have said, yes it brought in a lot of people. It made it look safe for developers to push fighters more, for sure, but the amount of people who came into fighters since 09 and expanded their interests past non-Capcom fighters is probably really small. Slowly I'm seeing more people get into and ask about XIII with all the recommendations and viewership out there; makes me really happy, but I doubt other franchises are so lucky. Despite the hype now, GG and VF communities will have an uphill battle to get fans in and keep them there, as do we.

[Mr Bakaboy]

^ I agree. My best case scenario would be the bubble bursts within 2 years. The companies stop making new games with all the DLC and update titles. Companies from then on would keep it affordable to own the entire game and space their games out giving the titles time to breathe and developers more time to make better quality products.

Personally I think if Playmore sits on any new titles till the worst is over and releases a new title a year or so after, they will be fine. If they try to release MOTW 2 (example) during the bubble bursting, then they are going to lose a lot of money and I'm betting it will finally kill Playmore.  Hopefully someone over there is noticing this as well and they are only planning to release cheaper titles for a while.

I think Sega noticed. Vitura Fighter 5 FS being an xbox arcade title shows they know people are not going to go along with being milked for as much money as they can. Hopefully, this will help out the title and the community with support this system of bringing out new games. Showing the companies what the masses are willing to spend on in the future.