Author Topic: Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.  (Read 2636 times)

LAB Falken

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Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.
« on: May 14, 2012, 05:56:16 AM »
First off; the reason for this thread is to discuss why you do the combos you do. In certain situations, why might you taper the combo off in order for a mixup instead heavier damage? For oki, for mixup, or perhaps a setup you have in mind?

In order to complement the 50% thread, here is a place to discuss why you might simplify your combo, why you might go for a reset, what oki mixup that results from said combos, and the setups behind everything mentioned.

I will be using numerical notation. For reference look at the numpad on your keyboard; 2 is down, 4 is left, 6 is right, 8 is up, 5 is neutral, and the rest of the numbers indicate combinations (such as up back or down forward). Oki is short for okizeme, the japanese terminology for wakeup game (ergo; what to do once you've knocked someone down). Resets are when you cut a combo short in order for mixup.

For example; Leona's 1b1d standard bnb in the corner (crB stB fB XX 214C > moonslasher (DC) grand saber > v slasher - 408 damage for reference)

turned into a reset (crB stB fB XX 214C > stA [RESET] A baltic launcher)

the damage turns to 178, which is a significant decrease in damage (with no meter whatsoever used, but you are still sacrificing damage by omitting a single moon slasher that isn't drive cancelled), but in turn allows significant mixup opportunity granted they do not EX DP through the A baltic launcher (the only option that does not result in trade, avoid, or loss- this can be amended by other characters with moves other than their DP that has full invincibility on startup, so take note). It has the added benefit of giving you more charge time if you are in the rare situation where you do not have charge off of a 214C, it is also far harder to react to on the fly or to give your opponent a moment to think off of a knockdown in place (from the moon slasher for example), so it has another added benefit of weakening their wakeup game.

So by sacrificing up to 230 damage you in turn maintain pressure, are granted huge frame advantage (at least enough to run up to two mixups!). The caveat of course is if they are hit by the baltic launcher you will not be able to combo off of it very easily into anything substantial due to how they are hit after the baltic launcher, and the scaling that comes as a result. You can however continue running the mixup (they get hit, reset them again with whichever normal you prefer (preferably special cancellable), and choose to baltic launcher, normal overhead, IOH, so you are granted the choice of pressure (though predictable after the first attempt), mixup, or to hang back.

This is the most elementary example I could think of, and contains pretty much everything in the title.

As a surnote this thread is more of a why than a how, I'd like to know why you go for the resets you do and when, in order to create a more varied database of the meta involved in KOFXIII.

desmond_kof

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Re: Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 02:13:58 AM »
I do certain combos because they would either give me a 50/50 oki setup afterwards, or a safejump, or a reset if I'm going to sacrifice the potential damage from doing a different one.

For example with Yuri, I may do cr.B, cr.A, qcb+A or cr.B, st.B, qcb+B, because they both end in a hard knockdown for which I can do a 50/50 crossup setup with j.D or j.CD or a empty jump into a throw or bait a reversal.

On a more personal note, I usually do certain combos because they may be easier to execute for me, while also having good or even so-so damage. I would rather do a easier combo in a tourney that does mediocre damage or even more damage than one that I found is harder for me to confirm or perform in the heat of battle. For example with Normal Kyo, an easy HD combo I do is st.C, df+D (HD), st.C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcb~hcf+P, neomax which does 640 or so, while I can't trust myself to do a longer combo that does around 700/800 damage...
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 10:33:37 PM »
I mostly do my combos for damage or the most I can get for a bar. There are some that are pretty difficult and run the risk of dropping, but half the time, I just want the most out of the situation I can get.

For some characters, like Maxima, there are times I do switch it up. His vapor cannon causes a longer knockdown time than his M19 Blitz Cannon (air grab), so off of a wired attack, I can set up a safe jump situation by going in from the air and pushing them farther to the corner. M19 Blitz cannon does more damage, but doesn't give much in the way of meter as well as not leaving the opponent knocked down for long. It's better to wait for them to get up and go for a max range sweep  on their wake up, but that's about all.

For Terry, I change some combos depending on the life of my opponent. I might end a combo with Power Geyser or EX Rising Tackle if I know it'll kill my opponent. However, if my opponent has some life to spare, I might end his BnB with a Buster Wolf or end a drive cancelled crackshoot with a st.B into fireball. One does less damage and one doesn't even combo, but it allows me to apply pressure. Buster Wolf is a soft knockdown just like Power Geyser and EX Rising Tackle, but you get significantly more time to recover than your opponent. This means you can mess with them if they tech or not. If they tech, they forfeit all throw invulnerability and can be grabbed the moment they come up. An additional 100 dmg plus a hard knockdown is painful. If they're aware of your attempt you can mix it up with a meaty low B into a full combo again.

This kind of mix up really is scary especially when it carries you to the corner as well.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 10:46:57 PM by Reiki.Kito »

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2012, 10:41:59 PM »
Well, for me, most of the time, I tend to go for the increased oki if the damage difference isn't OUTSTANDING.

For example, Kensou is probably my MAIN main, and usually for him, in the corner, you finish throw combos with a DP.  I instead finish with the Rekka finisher, in order to gain the Hard KD allowing for more setup with Kensou.  The damage difference is almost negligible and Kensou gains a lot from continuous corner pressure.

For Terry, I'm a little different that Reiki.  If my opponent has more that 50% health, if I have the meter, I almost always end Terry's BnB's with a st.B (hit reset) xx EX Power Wave.  It forces the opponent to fall right on it and either burn a meter to get out, or let me get right back in for free.  Other than that, I always finish my combos with either Buster Wolf (unless I have no meter in the corner, or I think EX Rising Tackle will be worth the slight extra damage).  Or if I somehow got a backturned opponent, then end with EX Crackshoot in the corner for a corner crossup.
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DarKaoZ

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Re: Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2012, 03:28:00 AM »
I always go for damage and I usually start combos from lows so I try to get the most damage possible out of a low attack. And if I do a reset, is because either I don't have the bars to do a more damaging combos or I do want to start the next combo with big damage in mind.

LAB Falken

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Re: Resets, oki, mixup, setups, and simplified combos.
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2012, 02:14:00 PM »
I've come up with a safe jump setup with K'.

This is in particular very good for point K', as there is often times when you cannot go for an optimal 1b1d combo due to meter constraints. Some characters can use their fastest DPs or EX DPs to go through, as I continue to test I will complete the listing below.

st C > 236A > fB > st A > neutral hop B.

You can instead go for 623C off the fB, and get some more damage out of it, but I would honestly use a safe jump setup in this particular instance more often than not, as you are granted free pressure as a result.

People it doesn't work on:

Ash (d~u+B and d~u+BD)
Normal Kyo (623A and 623AC)
Benimaru (623BD)
Daimon can at best make it whiff with his invincible throw.
Terry (d~u+AC)
Saiki (236236K)
Ryo (623A and 623AC)
Robert (623A and 623AC)
Takuma (hcb+BD, hcf+BD guard point will absorb the hit but the fireball will whiff, of fhcf A, C and AC will absorb the hit but the fireball itself will be blocked)
Mr Karate (623A is the only move I could find that beat it)
Iori (623A and 623AC and hcf AC, EX maiden masher as well)
Mature (623AC allows for escape)
Elisabeth (hcbf AC, 214AC)
Duo Lon (236BD allows for escape)
Shen (CABC)
Kim (d~u+BD)
Tested everything but Raiden's 30~s drop kick.
King (236236A or AC)
Yuri (623A)
Kula (623C, 623AC)- Is her C crow bite really faster than her A? Probably the strangest thing I found out during this testing.
Athena (hcf+A and hcf+C, AC is too fast. hcbx2A and EX also work)
Chin (hcb+B, hcb+BD)
Clark (he can hcf+B it but you can jump out)
Leona (d~u+AC)

Let me know if you guys find any other escapes or if my information is erroneous, thanks.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 03:56:34 PM by LAB Falken »