Topic: Bad Matchup/Counterpick Thread

[choysauce]

Wanted to compile a list of every character's bad matchups. through this we might be able to determine very effective teams that cover all match ups. also to see who else you may want to consider picking up to cover the bad match ups for your main team.

these are the characters i think so far are counterpicks (i'll only list ones i'm confident in, will update based on what ppl discuss and i agree with)
also correct me if you feel like any of my picks are totally wrong (probably will be alot with all these athena picks lol)

Post up the bad matchups that your characters have and why you feel they are bad matchups!

=Kyo
worst:
bad:

=EX Kyo
worst: Athena
bad: Kensou, Kim, Mr. Karate

=Beni
worst:
bad:

=Daimon
worst: King
bad:

=Terry
worst:
bad:

=Andy
worst: Kim
bad: Beni,

=Joe
worst:
bad:

=Elisabeth
worst: Ryo
bad: Yuri, K'

=Shen
worst:
bad:

=Duo Lon
worst: Beni
bad: Yuri, Elisabeth, King

=Kim
worst: Karate
bad: Ash

=Raiden
worst: kensou
bad: vice

=Hwa
worst:
bad: King, Kim

=King
worst: Yuri
bad:

=Mai
worst: Kyo
bad: Ex Kyo

=Yuri
worst: Beni
bad: Mai

=Ryo
worst:
bad: Kensou

=Robert
worst:
bad: everyone

=Takuma
worst: Kyo
bad: Ex Kyo

=Mr.Karate
worst: Athena
bad: King

=Vice
worst: Athena
bad: Kensou, King, Iori

=Mature
worst:
bad: Kensou, Shen, Athena

=Iori
worst:
bad:

=EX Iori
worst:
bad:

=K'
worst: Athena
bad:

=Kula
worst: Shen
bad:

=Maxima
worst: kensou
bad: shen

=Athena
worst: Yuri
bad: Daimon, Mai, Duo Lon

=Kensou
worst: Kyo
bad: Ex Kyo

=Chin
worst:
bad: Kyo, Iori,

=Ralf
worst:
bad:

=Clark
worst: Kensou
bad: Athena, King, Karate

=Leona
worst:
bad: Duo lon,

=Ash
worst: Athena
bad:

=Billy
worst: Yuri
bad: Kim, Mai

=Saiki
worst: Ralf
bad: Shen

[LouisCipher]

I honestly think that Karate just doesn't have a single bad matchup or counter. His offense is amazing and his defense is just as good. There's no real holes in his game, debatably the same could be said about EX Iori, Kyo, and maybe Duo Lon .

Clark
Worst: Karate and Beni.
Bad: Kim, Vice, Ash.

Hwa
Worst: Karate
Bad: Shen, Kim.

Billy
Worst: Karate, King.
Bad: Mai.

[choysauce]

lol sounds like your list looks like this

=everyone
worst: Karate

But Karate has weaknesses, very few, but he's totally beatable.

gotta bait him alot, and make good reads against his fireballs. (you can whiff punish his fb)
i feel like characters with good crossups would do ok.
and his zoning game isn't as strong as other characters

[LouisCipher]

Whenever I try to get in on Karate at about mid-range I either eat his jCD or his fireball. I think he's beatable but not by much.

[Kane317]

Choysauce, kinda curious about your Duo Lon list:

=Duo Lon
worst: elisabeth
bad: maxima

How come you feel that Elisabeth is the worst match up for DL and Maxima is a bad one for him?  I actually use Duo Lon on purpose against Ricardo's Maxima and it proves to be very effective for me (keep away).  

Next I would like know why Daimon is considered the worst match for Chin:

=Chin
worst: Daimon
bad:

Perhaps you can shed some light on your reasoning.

[choysauce]

Choysauce, kinda curious about your Duo Lon list:

=Duo Lon
worst: elisabeth
bad: maxima

How come you feel that Elisabeth is the worst match up for DL and Maxima is a bad one for him?  I actually use Duo Lon on purpose against Ricardo's Maxima and it proves to be very effective for me (keep away).  

Next I would like know why Daimon is considered the worst match for Chin:

=Chin
worst: Daimon
bad:

Perhaps you can shed some light on your reasoning.

the duo lon matchup for me seems like he needs to control people with his pokes and rekkas, liz has an answer for the pokes and effectively punish it with her counter. if i'm not mistaken she has a good OS with the cross up mixup wakeup mixup duolon has. (qcb+AC). she has good hop pressure and jump normals, if you read an ex teleport you can time a ex cmd grab and land huge damage.

*edit*
thinking about it more, i think beni might be worse, since he can compete air to air, has a cmd grab punish, and control's duo's sweet spots with the raijinken's well


wasn't sure about maxima, but i figured the autoguard might help and his cmd grab. i guess not lol

for chin, i feel like throws are effective against him, all 3 options of low/high/throw for daimon lead to big damage, and from far he can punish any drink attempt and negates the ability for his roll.

do you usually beast on daimons? loll

what would your list look like for these 2 characters?

[Kane317]

IMHO:

=Duo Lon
worst:
bad: King, anyone that can punish his teleport like with 1F grabs Clark, Daimon, Vice, Raiden and Beni.

I know it might just be me, and I know Reynald think it's the other way around, but I have always found it hard for this match up.  The most mentioned reason is, his f B which normally is used to counter keep-away/zoning characters (Saiki, Athena even Ryo to a certain extent) is ineffective on King as her Venom Strike (qcf K) keeps her off the ground although DL's Ex f BD still works due to a larger hit box.

His tall and long jump archs makes over jumping a huge problem against zoners and King has no problem dashing under and using d.B as an anti air if needed be.   In fact, I think King excels against most characters that have longer jump archs since it's harder to make those controlled short hops over her projectiles while maintaining a good position.

He lacks a good reversal (with Ex qcf K teleport being his only one, and I'm not going to get into the weaknesses of that in this thread) when he's cornered by King and seeing that both characters tend to play point, that happens a lot with you not having any meter.

His BnB rekkas x3 teleport blockstring can be punished by King without any meter irregardless which version of his teleports, one of the few non-grappling characters that can without spending anything.  

The rest are all due to the reason you cannot use his rekkas x3 teleport blockstring haphazardly since they can command throw you as you past.  Strangely Yuri either cannot, or has a hard time doing it consistently.

=Chin
worst: Kyo, Ioris
bad: Beni, Chin, Duo Lon

Beni is good for many reasons outside of him just being top tier.  For one, his ability to change his timing of his landing of his jumps (air+d.D, air qcf P) really affect Chin's ability to play a good counter game, and one whiffed counter equals a huge punish from Beni.  Chin has a hard time against attacks from directly or near directly above him as his df.B, far C, qcb C hits more in front of him than above him.  Beni's far D is also incredibly hard to get around due to his jump speed and since Chin doesn't jump very fast and can be easily punished if he tries to normal jump Beni.   In sum, it's really hard to get in with Chin against Beni, definitely on my short(!) list of characters I don't like fighting against with Chin.

Chin:  Besides from the fact I hate mirrors, Chin's floaty jumps makes countering a piece of cake or jumping away if they see you not press a button.  When he's far away, he'll drink, making you either drink with him or want to hcf K in to attack him which leads you susceptible to counters and big damage mix up.  Anytime you try to hcf K in, as long as he has meter, he can Ex hcf K you back as long as he starts later.  Of course he can Ex hcf K your Ex hcf K as well lol.  It's really a silly silly match up.

Duo Lon:  Despite his counters being effective against Duo Lon's long range aerial pokes, Duo Lon is super effective with playing keep away from Chin with his teleports.  His speed is really useful for punishing any failed counter attempts and as long as he doesn't get too trigger happy with ghost projectiles (qcb P), Chin can't really punish him.  Chin needs meter to punish his rekka-teleport shennanigans, Ex qcb P if his does B teleport and Ex hcf K if he does D teleport but he still needs to guess which one because those punishes are teleport specific and don't work interchangeably.

Kyo and Iori is basically due to the sheer speed and their mixup ability makes risking counters for anti air a big gamble.  If they're played as anchor, as they are commonly are, one mistake equals big HD damage.  Iori in particular with his low hops and fast high low crossup mixups makes it hard for Chin to do any form of non-countering anti-air:  Far C quickly becomes s.C if miscalculated since Iori jumps so fast and I've lost count how many times I've gotten a s.C instead of Far C and eaten a HD combo in attempts to keep Iori out.  Try hopping out of the corner against them?  3F close C (from BOTH!) as an anti air and of course Chin's jumps are slow as molasses.

---

As for Goro, I find that Chin is actually quite effective to grapplers in general due his smaller hit box and an awesome keep away j.CD.  As long as Chin doesn't get too predictable with his overheads I feel that it's in Chin's favor against grapplers.

[sibarraz]

Does shen has any bad matchups?

[Reiki.Kito]

I think Shen has a hard time with people with fast normals and fireballs. People like Ryo and Saiki kind of keep him out and takes away his tools. Also, Mr. Karate's safe pressure makes it hard for Shen to deal with it without meter.

In all honesty, I feel Shen's much better when he has meter because most of his strong reversal options cost meter. Without it, he's dependent on his upper body invincible d.C and that's not going to save him from strong pressure characters.

[desmond_kof]

Without it, he's dependent on his upper body invincible d.C and that's not going to save him from strong pressure characters.

His cr.C isn't invincible...it has very fast startup (around 4f), but it's not invincible.

[sibarraz]

Andy, Yuri or Mai

Which is the best option against him?

[Nagato1992]

LMFAO@ Robert's bad matchups.

Anyways, here are a couple from me:

=Ralf
Worst: Saiki
Bad: Shen, Kim, Joe, Athena
Good counterpick to: Andy, Duo Lon.

=Kim
Worst: None
Bad: EX Iori, Saiki, Takuma
Good counter pick to: Shen, Vice, Clark, Terry

=Claw Iori
Worst: Takuma
Bad: Saiki, K,' Benimaru, Clark
Good counterpick to: Shen, Terry, EX Kyo, King(he's got the tools to catch king in a lot of areas once he is in)

=Kyo
Worst: None
Bad: Benimaru, Mr. Karate, Kim,
Good counterpick to: Takuma, King, Robert, Clark, Yuri, Saiki

=Terry
Worst: Iori, EX Iori
Bad: Kim, Duo Lon, Shen, Takuma
Good counterpicks/does very well against: Vice, Saiki, Mature, Clark, Ryo, Kyo, EX Kyo

=Andy
Worst:Takuma
Bad: Mr. Karate, Clark, Ralf, Kim
Good counterpicks to: Vice, Joe, Raiden,