Balance issues and constructive suggestions

[TYRANNICAL]

I think people believe rushing down Raiden is silly because this game has strong offensive play and they fear getting in Raiden's face.  I'd like to know what people who stand against getting in Raiden's face would recommend.  You can't run away from Raiden because then he can freely charge up without having to worry about blocking anything.  At least by rushing him down you can attempt to break open his defense.  It's like people want to back away from him because of attacking being a risk and Raiden's sheer damage output.  Duo Lon can't just sit back and use far pokes all day. 

But if you run away you're making it easier for him so...

[Diavle]

Rushdown is the way to go but that doesn't change the fact that its stupid that you are forced into this position from the start of a round.

[Kane317]

About K':  I think what Musolini said earlier is absolutely right on the money about how he builds meter fast, it ties in to my next point.  One of the main thing that really sets him apart from the rest of the cast is his juggle starters.  A handful of the cast can do long damaging corner combos, but often time they need drive, stock or both.  On top of that, K''s main juggle starter Eins Trigger (qcf+P) into his follows up Second Shoot (f+B) and Second Shell (f+D) have little to no recovery (-3) frames and (-2) frames respectively (for a point of reference, light attacks are usually 4 or sometimes 3 frames).  

Let's think about this: he has good recovery for corner traps that setup damaging long juggles, he's builds up meter quick due to safe strings, he's a perfect 1st character since the opponent doesn't have much meter to GCCD or GCAB themselves -- which makes him arguably one of the hardest characters to get out of the corner against.  Oh, he can also start his juggles with Narrow Spike (qcb K.qcb K) and his j.CD on counters .   Factor in a good Neomax and super good air normals is why he stands apart from the rest IMHO.

Let's not forget that Arcadia October edition dedicated a section on how to fight 4 characters: K', Kula, Mature (v1.0), Iori.  I think they left Raiden out coz there's nothing you really can do against him lol.

[Rex Dart]

About K':  I think what Musolini said earlier is absolutely right on the money about how he builds meter fast, it ties in to my next point.  One of the main thing that really sets him apart from the rest of the cast is his juggle starters.  A handful of the cast can do long damaging corner combos, but often time they need drive, stock or both.  On top of that, K''s main juggle starter Eins Trigger (qcf+P) into his follows up Second Shoot (f+B) and Second Shell (f+D) have little to no recovery (-3) frames and (-2) frames respectively (for a point of reference, light attacks are usually 4 or sometimes 3 frames).   

Let's think about this: he has good recovery for corner traps that setup damaging long juggles, he's builds up meter quick due to safe strings, he's a perfect 1st character since the opponent doesn't have much meter to GCCD or GCAB themselves -- which makes him arguably one of the hardest characters to get out of the corner against.  Oh, he can also start his juggles with Narrow Spike (qcb K.qcb K) and his j.CD on counters .   Factor in a good Neomax and super good air normals is why he stands apart from the rest IMHO.

Let's not forget that Arcadia October edition dedicated a section on how to fight 4 characters: K', Kula, Mature (v1.0), Iori.  I think they left Raiden out coz there's nothing you really can do against him lol.

The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.

Regarding K' (and perhaps Kula), would it make sense to handicap them by artificially reducing the speed at which they gained meter? Since their meter-less combos are probably the longest in the game, it makes sense to me for them to gain meter slower. Has that ever been done for any other KOF characters?

I really appreciate everybody's opinions and insights on this topic. It's an interesting subject to me.

[Kane317]

The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.

Which layout did they say it was easier?  BTW, when are you coming back to Cali?

[Rex Dart]

The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.

Which layout did they say it was easier?  BTW, when are you coming back to Cali?

I think they said the box is superior, but don't quote me on that. If you head over to kof-uk.blogspot.com, you can see some pictures of the article he posted up.

Man, that Raiden article could almost be a parody of XIII. EVERYTHING LEADS TO DROP KICKS.

(And I'll be back in California for the last two weeks of December, approximately.)

[MUSOLINI]

The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.

Which layout did they say it was easier?  BTW, when are you coming back to Cali?

neo cd pad lay out is great for kof.

C        D

A        B

i found this one and A, B, C, D in most arcades. problem in turkey was that in a lot of arcades the first lay out had all the buttons mixed (something like:)

D      A

B      C

or some other dumb ass shit. also im guessing this goes for a lot of arcades, but using the first player is a big no no in some arcades (cept in japan where they actually maintain their shit).

[Zabel]

I loled when I read about drawbacks on Raiden's drop kicks and that the solution is to rush Raiden down.

Well judging from the videos rushing Raiden down while he's charging provides the most effective results, you guys need to stop skipping all the Raiden/K' videos because you're missing out on some good stuff.

Raiden is not handicapped enough in those 16 seconds to deserve 80% free of stock damage.

He is handicapped, but the problem is that Raiden can make up for that with his really strong normals, priority, and still be able to zone out projectiles with Poison Mist, and do combos like cr.X/St.X + hcbx2+AC.

Both lvl. 4 kicks with a st.A in the middle do somewhere around 55% raw damage, and if the Raiden player has the extra meter/drive he can continue with...

db~f+AC, qcb+C, (DC) db~f+AC, qcb+Ax2, dp+P to do the additional 40~42% damage

anyway if they were to nerf Raiden, imo they should
- Get rid of his ability to do a lvl. 4 dropkick after a GCA, that's bullshit
- Cut the amount of meter he gets from the lvl. 4 dropkick on hit in half, way too much
- Nerf his EX tackle, it re-juggles the opponent in the corner which is the ONLY reason why he can pull off that extra 40~42% without doing a Neomax, they should make that the opponent falls faster after X amount of juggle attacks (doesn't happen when you use EX tackle in succession), it'll force the Raiden player to sacrifice more meter/drive to take you out

There's probably more but I think those are the most important nerfs but won't severely cripple him imo.

Pretty much what I've been saying the whole time along with a few others, and I never noticed how much meter he got off of them till now, that is way to much.[

[Kane317]

The Iori talked got moved to his section.

[C 3]

Takuma needs to combo his Hard "tatsu" off of his cr.lk.  He just doesn't seem to be much of a threat anymore mid-screen with no meter. 

[Kane317]

Takuma needs to combo his Hard "tatsu" off of his cr.lk.  He just doesn't seem to be much of a threat anymore mid-screen with no meter.  

He's real good as it is, Mr KoF uses him all the time and maybe we should record him using it.  The light version still pushes you decently far and it's not too hard for him to get you into the corner between his projectiles, Hienshippukyaku (said flying kick), and j.CD.

[Shinra Shiranui]

I noticed that Ralf qcb+A/C is supposed to be a defensive move. I think it could really benefit him if the speed and radius was improved a bit.

[MUSOLINI]

hey since this is the general discussion, who do you guys think of as the top 3 or 5 least complete characters in the game?

#1: Mai, ive been saying this since the very first time i saw her moveslist and in game play. some tried to dismiss it by saying shes just different, but shes dead boring. her worst itteration ever in a kof cept for 94.

#2: Terry, again one of my favorite characters that got done in. as a mai and terry user this sucks, but at least terry is more complete than mai, which is still a minor plus.

#3: i think either clarck or goro? maybe im missing somebod?

[DarKaoZ]

Vice and Mature? I think Vice needs a bit more of moves.

[MUSOLINI]

mature is good enough, maybe your right about vice though. would have been nice if she had her multikick move that was also possible in the air (mature had it too).