Author Topic: Dealing with Athena  (Read 5031 times)

DoctaMario

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Dealing with Athena
« on: November 15, 2012, 04:05:54 AM »
I've been playing a little while (since May) and while I've been able to figure out strats and weaknesses against some of the characters I have trouble against, I can't say the same about Athena.

I play Ralf, King, and Robert, and I've yet to find a good way to deal with an even halfway decent Athena player. Her fireballs are good, recovery is excellent and she seems to to have tools to deal with any situation. You try to play keep away and she can zone you out. You try to zone her, she sends all your projectiles back at you and if you try to roll her dp is quick and has little recovery. I Find when I get close she uses that levitation thing or some of the other stuff she has. She doesn't seem to have any weaknesses that I can suss out. Help!

sammy5m1th

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 06:22:06 AM »
Guess I'll take a stab at this first.  

With King I don't think you should be losing the fireball war too badly, if at all.  The reflector is well and good but King's light fireball doesn't travel full screen and is slow, so if you use that one and Athena reflects it, it will likely die out before it gets back to you.  If you time it well you could probably rush in behind it and punish her with a tornado kick/jump in/whatever too.  So be sure to mix up those two fireballs, or even jump Athena's fireball and then toss one out before you land while staying out of DP range.  You can also use King's air fireball to alter her trajectory, so if Athena gets into a predictable rhythm on her fireball/DP trap keep that in mind.

If you're going to roll a fireball don't do it too close to her, just use the roll to get to a better position/avoid chip damage, which is pretty much the case with every light fireball in the game actually.  If you roll it and land on top of her she can toss out a throw or command grab which will always catch regular rolls so don't use it when you'll land within range of a punish.  

Her command grab (the thing where she tosses you up into the air) is invincible but it also has some pretty terrible recovery so if you can identify when the Athena player will use it and you jump, you'll get a full punish.  

Her DP, like most of the cast, is pretty weak against cross ups since it lunges so far forward (especially good for Robert since his command cross up has some pretty great reach).  It's great in the fireball/DP trap area, but if you are close enough to be able to cross her up, its pretty risky.  Crystal bit (the glowing sparkle super) hits on both sides but is pretty risky to pull out on a whim unless the Athena player is constantly buffering the input or Athena's opponent is being predictable with their attacks.

Her normals tend to have pretty stubby reach or very specific uses/counters, except for j.CD, which is a pretty solid move.  On the ground Her only far reaching moves are far s.D (slow), c.C/c.D (extremely punishable if hopped) and I guess s.A/s.B (both get beaten pretty handily by low profile moves like slides), so in poking range your characters should be pretty well off (Ralf and King I know have some far reaching normals, not sure on Robert).  It is worth noting that at range Athena's far D can beat out low pokes and King's CD can be swept by Athena's crouch D as well so keep that in mind.  If the reason you feel you're losing up close is solely due to her command grab or DP, you should assess what your habits are and figure out when you're getting hit with those moves since both are very punishable if Athena misses.

Hopefully some of the other Athena players will post their opinions, wouldn't mind having some thoughts on Athena vs King myself.  My local King player gives me all kinds of trouble (not helped by the fact that he's also a straight up better player than me, but whatever).  
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:46:03 AM by sammy5m1th »

Tikok

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 09:36:07 AM »
I have no experience fighting her, but I am a Athena main. So, I'll write my point of view as a Athena player.

Defying Athena in a fireball war is silly IMO, even if you are King. It's true that your fireball will die out before reaching you, but when Athena reflects fireballs, she builds meter, and you don't. The recovery is also so fast that it's extremely hard to punish. The longer the fireball war will last, the more advantage the Athena player will be at.

To me to beat Athena you need to seal off her fireball game with a threatening anti fireball move. Then, once you knocked her down, you want to attack her in an angle that will make her DP whiff , and not give her enough time to do her s.D.

Look out for gaps in her blockstrings if she uses fireballs during them, score a knockdown with your anti fireball move , and rush her down.

Be careful though, Athena's defensive options are numerous when she has meter. She has a hit invincible ex teleport, a 3f dm that must be perfectly safe jumped, and an invincible command grab.

DoctaMario

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 04:52:05 PM »
Thanks guys. I'll keep these things in mind when fighting her. I could never see the point in trying to win a fireball fight with her, even with King. The only thing I seem to be able to do to get around a lot of that is an EX Venom Strike or EX Fireball with Robert for a knockdown. If I'm playing as Ralf, forget it. :P I never seem to be able to get close enough to cross her up, but i'll have to try that tack next time.

Her recovery is really what gives me trouble. If she didn't recover so quick from her fireballs, it'd be pretty easy to just get in and punish.

Crimson_King15

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2012, 05:52:57 PM »
Imo ralf doesn't have any issues with Athena.

Qcb+a beats/neutralizes her projectiles whike building you meter and preventing her from gaining hers at a distance ralf should make Athena come to him for her damage, jet punch and even gattling gun are easy money AA's against her since her jump arch is so huge, bareback vulcan punishes nearly every special and even can even reversal catch a fireball if she tries to use a normal then throw a fireball in a block string (depending on the normal), ralf out classes her in normals and in her face ralf is a terror. You have so many options you can make her life a living hell.

You have an instant overhesd,
an amazing jump cd which is cancelable, a jump a which can be used to set up tick throws or jump canceled, qcf+c provides you with tons of block stun so you can lock her down then do high/low mix ups off of it, close st c, close st d, far st c and d to keep her in check when it comes to footsies, cr d which is cancel able and has better start up and range than Athena's sweep, after you have your opponent rattled to where they push buttons just to get you away you can dash up qcf+AC and bust up any reversals or carelessly thrown normals.

Ralf's whole game in this match up is to keep Athena guessing what option he is going to use after he puts her in block stun and once you get a hit pile the damage on as thick as possible. Ralf has all the tools to get close to Athena and then once he is there he can just drive ride her into the ground.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:03:13 PM by Crimson_King15 »

Tikok

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2012, 10:19:36 PM »
Quote
Qcb+a beats/neutralizes her projectiles whike building you meter and preventing her from gaining hers at a distance ralf should make Athena come to him for her damage
Ralf is the one who has to come. Athena can just use instant air phoenix arrow to build more meter than Ralf when he neutralizes her projectiles. There are very few characters in this game who can force Athena to get in, Raiden and Chin are among them, since drinking/charging dropkicks make them too threatening.

sammy5m1th

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 12:59:46 AM »
Hadn't noticed Athena getting meter for reflecting projectiles.  Good to know.

Anyway, Athena's ability to generate meter due to instant phoenix arrow is problematic if you just want to hang back, but on the bright side if she's doing that it means you can start to close the gap between you and her a bit.  It's real easy to get frustrated by solid zoning efforts so you just need to be patient and inch your way in when you can while avoiding unnecessary fireball/DP/j.CD damage.  

Tikok

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 01:15:10 AM »
She doesn't get meter for reflecting, but doing the reflector itself builds quite a lot of meter. And fireballs only build meter if they hit, or get blocked. Due to the very fast recovery, even if the fireball doesn't hit the opponent, simply reflecting one is advantageous for Athena.

Also, when trying to get in , you need to be careful about Athena's s.CD, even more than her j.CD actually. That thing has a ridiculous hitbox and is a very solid anti air. She can even OS teleport , so that if it hits counterhit she can get a free DP or a free combo if she's willing to spend meter.
(s.CD counter > (OS) qcf +B > dp+C > DC qcb A+C > whatever)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 01:16:59 AM by Tikok »

Crimson_King15

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 01:52:22 AM »
Quote
Qcb+a beats/neutralizes her projectiles whike building you meter and preventing her from gaining hers at a distance ralf should make Athena come to him for her damage
Ralf is the one who has to come. Athena can just use instant air phoenix arrow to build more meter than Ralf when he neutralizes her projectiles. There are very few characters in this game who can force Athena to get in, Raiden and Chin are among them, since drinking/charging dropkicks make them too threatening.
Idk about that because ralf can also use qcb+c which also neutralizes fireballs and builds a nice chunk of meter. Also ralf having meter is a lot more problemactic for Athena than Athena having meter. Ralf can punish a lot more with even 1 bar and with 2 Athena can't even jump at ralf or even away from at a certain distance because Ralf's level 2 super goes pretty far and is extremely fast also also it has guard point on it so it will eat moves up no problem.

Also there's are quite a few characters athena has to go to. Chin, Goro because of his ground slap, Hwa (if she is concerned about drinking, Kyo doesn't do a bad job at it, Terry ground wave, and Leona. Can all make her come to them.

sammy5m1th

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 04:21:58 AM »
I play Leona/Athena/Ex Kyo, so I'm pretty familiar with what Leona's got and besides the threat of a V slasher Leona doesn't have much to make Athena advance.  Leona's earring can be reflected, and fireballs will neutralize them, plus it's incredibly slow anyway.  I suppose since it's like King's light fireball and dissipates pretty quickly you could attempt to chase it at least.  Ex earring is better since it's pretty durable (so regular fireballs can't neutralize it) but sinking meter on that and not advancing on Athena doesn't sound like a good idea.  

Ground projectiles don't do much to make Athena advance since reflector works on those and fireballs cancel them out (would be interesting if ground fireballs went under regular ones though).  Terry's heavy one will eat a lot of fireballs, but its recovery and range are really bad so throwing one out that can actually hit someone also leaves you in range to be hit with a short hop pretty easily.

The threat of Hwa drinking isn't as scary as Chin for Athena I think.  That's not to say that a drunk Hwa isn't scary mind you, just that Chin (as far as I know) has better options to could convince Athena to go to him as opposed to running and zoning like her life depends on it.  Chin's drinking doesn't use meter and he also has that Ex rolling punch which bypasses fireballs and with one drive Chin can convert that into a lot of damage and a corner carry.  As an added bonus I don't think Athena can punish that move on block either.

Haven't fought a Goro as Athena yet so I don't know much about that match up.  I could see a Goro that's good at using ground pound making an Athena not throw fireballs as liberally since ground pound can duck her fireballs and it does more damage so trades are not in her favor.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 04:33:05 AM by sammy5m1th »

Crimson_King15

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 09:15:09 AM »
I play Leona/Athena/Ex Kyo, so I'm pretty familiar with what Leona's got and besides the threat of a V slasher Leona doesn't have much to make Athena advance.  Leona's earring can be reflected, and fireballs will neutralize them, plus it's incredibly slow anyway.  I suppose since it's like King's light fireball and dissipates pretty quickly you could attempt to chase it at least.  Ex earring is better since it's pretty durable (so regular fireballs can't neutralize it) but sinking meter on that and not advancing on Athena doesn't sound like a good idea.  

Ground projectiles don't do much to make Athena advance since reflector works on those and fireballs cancel them out (would be interesting if ground fireballs went under regular ones though).  Terry's heavy one will eat a lot of fireballs, but its recovery and range are really bad so throwing one out that can actually hit someone also leaves you in range to be hit with a short hop pretty easily.

The threat of Hwa drinking isn't as scary as Chin for Athena I think.  That's not to say that a drunk Hwa isn't scary mind you, just that Chin (as far as I know) has better options to could convince Athena to go to him as opposed to running and zoning like her life depends on it.  Chin's drinking doesn't use meter and he also has that Ex rolling punch which bypasses fireballs and with one drive Chin can convert that into a lot of damage and a corner carry.  As an added bonus I don't think Athena can punish that move on block either.

Haven't fought a Goro as Athena yet so I don't know much about that match up.  I could see a Goro that's good at using ground pound making an Athena not throw fireballs as liberally since ground pound can duck her fireballs and it does more damage so trades are not in her favor.


Terry's fireball recovery isn't bad and besides with Athena's jump arc unless she jumps prior to me throwing it I won't get hit and typically I can rising tackle her out of the air so it's not much of a risk to throw one out.

Hwa: while drinking takes meter Hwa has the ability to slide under some projectiles meaning zoning won't do her much I good. (if she is included in the group that he can slide under.

Leona: can't she throw an ear ring and then follow behind and punish if she attempts to reflect it? I'm pretty sure I've seen that happen before but maybe the Athena player messed up. But if this is the case then she has to block the earring or eat a combo either way Athena doesn't want to be in that situation so she should try to bring the fight to leona before Leona brings it to her

sammy5m1th

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 10:19:20 AM »
Been a while since I've played as Terry but I'm pretty sure his heavy wave (the one i mentioned eating fireballs) is pretty bad on recovery and has pretty short reach, I'll have to double check that later.  And yes, if you're going to throw out any slow projectile you should probably chase it but I was commenting on Crimson's post about people that make Athena approach them, not ways to get around Athena's zoning game.

Crimson_King15

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2012, 11:44:38 AM »
Been a while since I've played as Terry but I'm pretty sure his heavy wave (the one i mentioned eating fireballs) is pretty bad on recovery and has pretty short reach, I'll have to double check that later.  And yes, if you're going to throw out any slow projectile you should probably chase it but I was commenting on Crimson's post about people that make Athena approach them, not ways to get around Athena's zoning game.
It's beyond 1/2 screen so I wouldnt say that's short at all just shorter than his qcf+a fireball

SPLIPH

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2012, 11:04:16 PM »
Been a while since I've played as Terry but I'm pretty sure his heavy wave (the one i mentioned eating fireballs) is pretty bad on recovery and has pretty short reach, I'll have to double check that later.  And yes, if you're going to throw out any slow projectile you should probably chase it but I was commenting on Crimson's post about people that make Athena approach them, not ways to get around Athena's zoning game.
it is pretty bad on recovery, especially in comparison to what the other character could be throwing out. its not something to rely on cuz of it, but if the opponent is getting too comfortable throwing out fireballs its definately not hard to score a soft knockdown with it.

 imo it doesnt neutralize athenas fireball game, but will atleast tone it down a bit.

DoctaMario

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Re: Dealing with Athena
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 04:53:59 PM »
Lotta good food for thought in here, thanks guys!

Idk about that because ralf can also use qcb+c which also neutralizes fireballs and builds a nice chunk of meter. Also ralf having meter is a lot more problemactic for Athena than Athena having meter. Ralf can punish a lot more with even 1 bar and with 2 Athena can't even jump at ralf or even away from at a certain distance because Ralf's level 2 super goes pretty far and is extremely fast also also it has guard point on it so it will eat moves up no problem.

Also there's are quite a few characters athena has to go to. Chin, Goro because of his ground slap, Hwa (if she is concerned about drinking, Kyo doesn't do a bad job at it, Terry ground wave, and Leona. Can all make her come to them.

RE: Ralf's qcb-C, I don't know that I'd use that to nullify fireballs as by the time he recovers, she'll already have thrown another one. Unless I misunderstood what you meant by that. If you're up close and you can catch her at the same time she throws a fireball (in which case, I imagine you'd still trade hits).