Topic: BOSSES!!!!

[jinxhand]

You knew this topic was eventually coming... 

I'm pretty sure you've heard it before. Someone's playing a particular fighting game with a friend/frenemy, and they pick a boss and the other person starts crying "cheap!!!", and either stops playing altogether, or does the multitasking feat of continuing to fight their opponent while calling out things that make 'X' boss cheap or broken.

Gouki was banned in a bunch of tournaments (except some in Japan I believe). Omega Rugal has been banned. Hell, even Bai-Hu was banned in Breakers Revenge. On the flipside to this, you have bosses like Krauser, Seth, Neo Dio (NGBC, not WHP), and Young Geese who were not banned in tournaments, and considered balanced, even though they were strong characters. And lastly, to add to this three-sided coin, you have bosses that are allowed in some regions, but not in others (I believe Gouki was one of them in ST, as well as Normal Geese in 2k2UM).

I played a bit of NGBC awhile back against a certain player (whose name I can't remember), and he got mad after the match, and called me cheap for using a boss character. Now, in this particular game, the bosses, with the exception of Goodman, are balanced, and so they're allowed in ranked matches, with the obvious exception of Goodman. They're so balanced they're missing 2 moves a piece that would make them super strong imo... In any event, this was explained to the young chap, but he still insisted it was cheating, even though I don't know how. He claimed it was a glitch in the game, but that would have simply been fixed, as there have been issues with this game in the ps2 era that have been fixed in this version. Nevertheless, he still was hard-pressed in disagreeing with me, so much that he blocked me (I'm a menace to XBL society or something)... Either way, I'm still capable of playing without a boss character. In fact, one of the characters I would normally use back in the day is actually stronger than the boss character himself (yep I'm a Mr. Big user, go ahead and stone me )...

My question is this: What is YOUR take on boss usage in fighting games??? Should they be banned simply because they're bosses??? Or should they be given a chance to be used unless proven that they're broken??? Or should they all be allowed, broken or not??? I personally feel that if the boss is balanced, and that can be proven, then its ok... Again, as stated before, there are regular characters that are more 'broken' or stronger than the actual boss in their respective game (Mr. Big, Sho, Enja, Jack, Hilde, Steve Fox in T5, etc). However, I feel that if a boss is usable, let it be something that the fighting game community can agree upon. I don't wanna use a character, and then go somewhere else in the US or in the world, and that character is banned just because, or because "he/she is a boss character). I will say that its very very rare that I use boss characters though...

Share your thoughts/opinions on this rage-inducing matter!!!

[Xxenace]

if they can be balanced with everyone else then im not against it

also i hate your neo-dio jinx lol

[marchefelix]

if they can be balanced with everyone else then im not against it

This

[Amedø310]

If they're not on Yujiro Hanma's level, who can pull off one out of two 1-hit KO counter specials at the start of each round, then I'm cool with any character in fighting game.

[solidshark]

It really depends on the boss, mid-boss sometimes, or the game itself. With SNK, decent to good players don't always use boss the same way the cpu does, so there are different and acceptable styles of boss play here and there. And there are enough great players who use characters and make you feel like you're experinecing SNK boss syndrome outside of the arcade mode (a.ka. Raiden in XIII). Bosses like Geese, Rugal, Goenitz, Krilzalid, Clone/Zero, and some others are fine, and I mean when they were the final bosses. Others like Igniz, Mukai, Magaki, Omega Rugal ('95), Orochi, not so much.

Most times I think a player should be ready for whatever another throws at him, but it does depend. Like what's being done with XIII, I'd be more inclined to eliminate bosses from a game if half or more players are picking them. Since they do that for non-boss characters, like K' and Raiden in XIII occasionally, why not? I always wondered if anyone would have the guts to have a SF with no shotos or Marvel with no Storm/Sentinel/Magneto's allowed.

also i hate your neo-dio jinx lol

I hated fighting his Nio-Dio too, but I learned a lot from fighting someone who's obviously had boss-experience.

[jinxhand]

I don't think any character should be removed, just simply nerf them to balance the character(s). I mean, Billy Kane was nerfed in 2k3, but was way stronger in 2k2, and he's slightly stronger in 2k2UM but still weaker than OG2k2's version. As far as bosses go, well once Amakusa was made playable, they balanced him further and further... He's always considered a boss character since his debut in Samsho 1. But you can look at what he was capable of then and look at him in Samsho 3, and tell that he would've been broken if he were playable.

[LouisCipher]

Dark Geese has done a lot of videos on this, at least for 02UM.

I'm fine with Boss Characters so long as they can't Touch Of Death you.

[Delta]

I'm OK with boss chars, if they are balanced since the beginning and toned down versions, like I-No in GGXX ,Nu-13 in BB (yes, she is top-tier, but not broken), or the Tekken bosses before T5.

[Custle]

98UM version of Goenitz is just bad. I thought he was nerfed, but damn he does huge damage. That is why I banned him when I was playing with my friend.

But I think bosses in XI are quite well balanced. I like to Silber and Adelheid and they don't feel that overpowered.

[jinxhand]

I'm fine with Boss Characters so long as they can't Touch Of Death you.

That's pretty much the whole bottom row of bosses in 2k2UM:

http://youtu.be/eBwh3ZNE5l0 - Goenitz
http://youtu.be/VZ3-H-9iXAc - Normal Geese (there's some other ones out there, too)
http://youtu.be/VZ3-H-9iXAc - an Igniz classic!!!
http://youtu.be/R9zA__Sn74M - Krizalid
http://youtu.be/73wxVACPL1g - C.Zero (a few others out there)
http://youtu.be/gFgAsFvmSCc - (this pretty much covers every boss here, and there are a few "staged" combos)

Of course not every combo is practical, but there are alot of them that if the boss character was the anchor, with 5 bars of meter, its a wrap if you know how to use them really well...

[solidshark]

I'm fine with Boss Characters so long as they can't Touch Of Death you.

http://youtu.be/gFgAsFvmSCc - (this pretty much covers every boss here, and there are a few "staged" combos)

Maybe I spoke too soon.

[jinxhand]

My thing is this, if the boss character becomes playable, he/she should be balanced. I think of Dio from JJBA or even the Ogres from T3. They might have been strong and playable, but they were beatable... In fact, they weren't even the broken or over-powered characters...

As far as ToD characters go, if they should be banned, then that should be the same for regular characters, too... I mean in SF2, there's at least 3-5 characters with ToD's provided they dizzy. I personally hate the dizzy system in certain games, because that basically means all you have to do is find a combo that can dizzy, and then find something else that's stronger to finish the opponent off, or do the same thing you did to dizzy in the first place.

Well, lemme ask this question then: What playable boss character(s) do you feel was(were) truly the worst in ANY fighting game???

[FataCon]

My thing is this, if the boss character becomes playable, he/she should be balanced. I think of Dio from JJBA or even the Ogres from T3. They might have been strong and playable, but they were beatable... In fact, they weren't even the broken or over-powered characters...

Ogre is arguably the best character in T3 by a large margin. With a 12f unblockable and numerous 100% combos off easy hit confirms, he hardly had any even/bad matchups (maybe Xiaoyu cause of Phoenix stance). His sidestep was ridiculously huge compared to a majority of the cast. His setups worked even on veteran players because aside from the unblockables, you could block and he would still have guaranteed setups. So, IMO, bad example. Just sayin'.

I think boss characters should stay boss characters and not join playable rosters. They're interesting for single player modes, but, in a competitive realm, they just don't belong. They're generally designed to be OP. Otherwise, it feels like you're playing MUGEN.

P.S. True Ogre was bad cause of the hitbox though.

Well, lemme ask this question then: What playable boss character(s) do you feel was(were) truly the worst in ANY fighting game???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY

[jinxhand]

Yeah Orge was strong, but from personal experience, Jin, you're right about Xiaoyu, Yoshi (ss spin move, and kangaroo kick setups) and Lei even could pose a threat to Orge. I definitely know Jin could stop Ogre since he could block then dodge ff+2 and free laser scraper, or iWS+2 I believe... Either way, regardless of matchups, he's still beatable... He's no Goodman, Igniz, or Omega Rugal...

Yeah True Ogre was too big, but they fixed him up in TTT though...

[Custle]

Looking for a cheap boss? Here's a one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCjMTvhR9U