Cancelling Method

[hitagi]

Hi Everyone!

I'm beginning to pick up KoF now and I noticed that a lot of combos use cancels. Could I please get a simpleton explanation on each type (i.e. Drive/Super Cancels) and how to actually execute them/practice them in the training room? I read in the Encyclopedia post that Drive Cancels are basically just pulling off another special in the middle of your current one but whenever I do that it never seems to work very well...

Thanks!

[Rex Dart]

Hey Hitagi. Welcome to DC. Here's the welcome forum if you feel like introducing yourself further.

Your question is a really common one, but it really is as simple as it sounds. Simply input another move during the animation for another move.

What characters do you use? We might be able to offer some relatively easy combos to start practicing with, or you could check out the technical reference videos. These videos show off a few basic DC / SC combos, and pause at the cancel frames. You can find links to all the technical references at the bottom of the characters' wiki page.

Have you been to the XIII wiki? It's pretty nice.

[hitagi]

Thanks for the links Rex! I've seen the technical reference and the wiki yes! ^^; They're both incredibly useful~ ww But then from what I can see, does that mean I just have to be impossibly fast with my input to get the next special halfway through my current special? In terms of characters, I only play with characters I find cool/cute so I've built a slightly awkward team of:

Terry, Athena and Kula! xD

[Kane317]

Thanks for the links Rex! I've seen the technical reference and the wiki yes! ^^; They're both incredibly useful~ ww But then from what I can see, does that mean I just have to be impossibly fast with my input to get the next special halfway through my current special? In terms of characters, I only play with characters I find cool/cute so I've built a slightly awkward team of:

Terry, Athena and Kula! xD

It's not as fast as you think once you get used to it.  As long as your inputs are neat and precise (and you don't have a bad habit of releasing the stick with input etc..),  just start doing the second input as you finish the first one but don't "finish" it until the drive cancel frames (a la technical reference), other than that it's just practice.

[thec0re3]

I'm no pro so take this with a grain of salt but if I'm correct buffering is something else you should practice. The amount of speed it takes to pull off another command after another is super hard ,but buffering does a great job of helping with the more difficult cancels. I was practicing one with KOF2002 JOE where I cancel his tiger kick(dp) into his  tiger kick dm(tiger knee motion). I believe I can buffer  motion and then just go into    and that should come out but I could be wrong about that one. One I know for sure is when I do his Bakuretsu Ken(mashing A/C) into      the  buffers and I can then just do another  and that activates screw upper(qcf,qcf+A/C). If I am wrong please correct me but learning the buffering is what will help with executing cancels.

[Rex Dart]

Yeah, it's exactly like Kane said. The timing definitely varies between characters, with some being quite fast and others being pretty easy. With practice it'll become super easy. Here are some good starter DCs with two of your characters:

Terry
qcb+A [DC] qcb+B. Weak Burn Knuckle DC'd to weak Crackshoot. The cancel point for burn knuckle is near the end of the attack, just before Terry recovers. So you don't have to be too quick about this one. (It also leaves them in a juggle state, so you can follow it up with an EX Rising Tackle.)

Athena
[in corner](air)qcb+D [DC] qcb+B. Strong Phoenix Arrow DC'd to Phoenix Reflector. The cancel point for this one is really easy to see, since it's the moment Athena kicks her legs out at the end of the move. When you see that kick connect, you should be pressing the B button to complete the input for your reflector. (This also leaves them in a juggle state, and can be followed up with fireballs, dp or DM.)

[hitagi]

Thanks very much for the help! >_< I can understand everything you guys have said overall, but there are still a few things I am unsure of~ ww One first thing would be the timing of executing Rising Tackle in the first place.

(It also leaves them in a juggle state, so you can follow it up with an EX Rising Tackle.)

1) How long do I have to "charge" or "hold -down- for" to pull of the move?
2) And also, what would you mean by juggle state? Would that mean that they are still attackable before the collapse or something along the lines of that?

I guess my main problem now is getting used to the joystick! Although at times I seem to be failing to get my specials right, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it~

Looking at the technical reference I'm assuming that those aren't all the possible cancels?

Once again thanks for the replies and I'll take that into heart when I practice further! Of course if you have any more tips please do help me out! xD

just start doing the second input as you finish the first one but don't "finish" it until the drive cancel frames (a la technical reference), other than that it's just practice.

So would this mean that at times my input can be quite slow and it would still register? o_O

[Kane317]

just start doing the second input as you finish the first one but don't "finish" it until the drive cancel frames (a la technical reference), other than that it's just practice.

So would this mean that at times my input can be quite slow and it would still register? o_O

I'll let the respective posters answer the other questions.  In all fighting games, there's a window of leniency with how long the game will accept your inputs as a "complete" move.  I can talk more about the subject in an advance thread but I'll be getting ahead of myself.

Let's use Terry as an example.  When doing the qcb (or quarter circle back  motion), trying holding back for a split second longer before pressing A or C to complete the motion.  Notice how the Burning Knuckle doesn't come out till you press punch.   

You'll have to experiment with the timing but if you don't press punch quick enough the qcb motion won't register and it'll act as if you're just pressing "back+A or C".

To answer you question:  Somewhat slow, so yes. 

[hitagi]

I'll let the respective posters answer the other questions.  In all fighting games, there's a window of leniency with how long the game will accept your inputs as a "complete" move.  I can talk more about the subject in an advance thread but I'll be getting ahead of myself.

Let's use Terry as an example.  When doing the qcb (or quarter circle back   motion), trying holding back for a split second longer before pressing A or C to complete the motion.  Notice how the Burning Knuckle doesn't come out till you press punch.  

You'll have to experiment with the timing but if you don't press punch quick enough the qcb motion won't register and it'll act as if you're just pressing "back+A or C".

To answer you question:  Somewhat slow, so yes.  

So in the end it's pretty much all based off practicing and experience then~ >_< Time to practice as much as possible! ww

Update: I've managed to get the hang of Athena's cancel that was suggested, that was quite easy but I think Terry's needs quite a lot of speed for me @_@... I have no idea how to cancel from A Burn Knuckle into B Crack Shoot~ :S

Oh and I've been meaning to ask about the buffering that,

I'm no pro so take this with a grain of salt but if I'm correct buffering is something else you should practice. The amount of speed it takes to pull off another command after another is super hard ,but buffering does a great job of helping with the more difficult cancels.

mentioned... I was wondering that, since I'm not too familiar with the other character's input just yet, would that for example mean that I if I wanted to cancel into Buster Wolf, then my  from Power Wave could count and I would just need to  to SC?

[omegaryuji]

1) How long do I have to "charge" or "hold -down- for" to pull of the move?

Charge time is about 1 second (real time, not based on the timer for the round).  If you've played charge characters in Street Fighter games, the charge time in KOF is about half of that.  If you've played charge characters in Arcana Heart games, the charge time is about the same.

2) And also, what would you mean by juggle state? Would that mean that they are still attackable before the collapse or something along the lines of that?

Yep, though there is a little caveat.

There are (I think) two types of juggles in XIII, normal juggles and anywhere juggles.  Normal juggles work exactly like you said (a move puts your opponent in juggle state, and then you can hit them with whatever before they hit the ground).  Anywhere juggles are certain special moves (like Vice's EX Decide or Elizabeth's Grand Rafale DM) that will always hit an airborne opponent, even if they aren't in a juggle state.  For instance, any move can juggle after a counterhit j.CD, but only anywhere juggles will connect after a non-counterhit j.CD.

Moves with anywhere juggle properties should all be noted in the wiki.

I guess my main problem now is getting used to the joystick! Although at times I seem to be failing to get my specials right, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it~

If you haven't used an arcade stick much before, it can definitely take time to get used to it.  You might want to look into getting a cheap one just to practice with using it at home (where you might be able to use games with input display in practice mode and where you'll at least not be playing money just to get used to a stick *laughs* ).  If you really want to use a stick for console play as well, though, I'd advise spending a little more (if necessary) to get a good one, since upgrading cheap parts to good quality ones will end up costing a similar amount anyway.

Looking at the technical reference I'm assuming that those aren't all the possible cancels?

Off the top of my head, I think the technical reference videos show all of the moves that can be drive/super/max canceled, but not all of the possible cancel timings.  I'm not sure how many characters are affected by that off the top of my head (characters who mostly use single-hit moves like Shen or Leona don't care, but it can make a difference for someone like Mature, who gets different effects depending on when she cancels the last part of qcb+Px3), but I'm sure asking in the character threads for whoever you want to use will get you the answer to that.

Once again thanks for the replies and I'll take that into heart when I practice further! Of course if you have any more tips please do help me out! xD

This isn't the first thing you need to do (just get comfortable with doing regular inputs and cancels for now), but I'd definitely recommend taking some time eventually to try finding out how much time you can put between the stick input and pushing the button(s) to make a special come out.  This is useful for hitconfirming (reacting to a move hitting and going into a combo), since you can autopilot a string like (with Shen) s.C, f+B, hcb~f, and then only press the A/C button if you saw the first part hitting.

[hitagi]

Thanks Omegeryuji that certainly helped! I haven't played SSF4AE properly before just once or twice button mashing in an arcade against my friend who actually knew how to play~ >_<

About my fight stick, I actually just got a cheap USB one to play and practice with on my computer before I actually go to the arcade to play since I don't have a console to play on other than my computer and from what I understand the Sanwa? or Hori? sticks are quite expensive and don't support USB sticks... :S Nonetheless I'm starting to get the hang of using it now so I feel a lot more comfortable! xD Before starting I watched a few videos on "how to hold a joystick" and I guess right now I'm kind of going wineglass but a lot looser so I don't wrap my whole hand on the ball, just 3 fingers - BUT, I really need to get rid of my habit of releasing after I make a special although that in itself is quite exhilarating for novice like me! Hehehe~

Update: Got the timing for qcb+A, [DC] qcb+B! ^^;

[omegaryuji]

Happy to help .

Regarding Hori and Madcatz sticks (the two main manufacturers right now), the ones for PS3 or X360 can work on PC, but it depends on your operating system and which version of those sticks you're using (most of them are fine, but it's something you'd probably want to test before making a purchase if you can, or at least make sure you can get your money back in case it doesn't work on your computer).  I'm not 100% sure if a PS2 stick with an inpin adapter for PS3 would work as well, but I fairly sure it would since most of the people I play with locally use Hori PS2 sticks (or one uses a keyboard with a PS2 PCB) and I think I've seen them playing stuff on PC like EFZ as well.  Since you already have an arcade stick, though, I'd suggest just trying to mod it with better quality parts if/when the stick and buttons start to wear out (or try to find someone who can if you're really uncomfortable with soldering like I am *laughs* ).

I actually like to release the stick very briefly between inputs if I don't have to immediately go into another motion (just a really quick release-grab, maybe 1/4th of a second at most), because I find it helps avoid getting an accidental special if I reset to neutral (as long as the spring in your stick is stiff enough to not flop around to other directions when you let go *laughs* ).  It's probably not as important in KOF, but I play or have played a lot of games with much less restricted canceling (AH3, Vamp Savior, BB, HnK, GG) where it's easy to get a very wrong move at times (like Hazama's basic combo in CS1 was <stuff>, df+C, qcb+D~C, (dash) s.C, cr.C, b+D, <more stuff>...accidentally doing f+C instead of (dash) s.C or qcb+D instead of cr.C, b+D is really easy if I don't reset to neutral and completely screws things up).  In the end, though, how you do your inputs is all personal preference, as long as you can do everything you need to consistently and without getting tired.

[Amedø310]

Well, in XIII, some cancels can be done with just one input between two moves that have the some directional input. For example, Yuri's dp+A/C into dp+B/D can becomes dp+A,B. The B has to be tapped like a raging demon input.

Other examples would be:

Ash: d~u+B/D (DC) b~f+B/D becomes db~TK+ B/D, B/D

Terry: d~u+A/C (DC) qcb+A/C becomes   + / , /

Also, hyper drive allows certain cancels to be done with one input:

Robert: dp+A/C (HC) qcf+A/C becomes dp+A/C, A/C

[Rex Dart]

Update: Got the timing for qcb+A, [DC] qcb+B! ^^;

Congrats. It sounds like you're already making progress.

In order to connect the EX Rising Tackle afterwards, start charging down IMMEDIATELY after you press "B" for Crackshoot. Then press up+AC the second Terry's feet touch the ground. The charge time is short enough that he doesn't even go into his crouching animation.

In the corner only, you can do qcb+A, [DC] qcb+D, EX BUSTER WOLF. Also recommended! 

[Remzi]

Fairly sure there are three juggle properties. No-juggle, Regular juggle, and anywhere juggle. Not sure about KOFXIII, but I do know that 2002 / 2002UM have moves that won't juggle even after a counterhit j.CD