Tier List Discussion.

[Dark Geese]

Agreed with everything jinxhand says....

[Remzi]

As for 2B 2A, it doesn't lead to much, because all he needs is that to the super, or his kick special... His real game comes in the form of mixups, especially teleport to overhead crossup with 9B which can lead to the only combo he needs...

No good combos off lows, exactly. His mixup game is strictly based on the teleport which is limited because most characters with a good 2C uppercut will violate any teleport -> j.B

As far as Big goes, man he should not be so low like that... Lariat is one of the best AAs in the game!!! Torpedo closes in and crushes lows, and can be used to push to the corner while staying up close to the opponent... .

Which proves you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'm done persisting this point to idiots.

Mod Edit: There's no need to insult anybody when expressing your views or frustrations about a particular subject.

Lariat is extremely unsafe because it can both be ducked under for a free low combo, and as an AA it's fairly poor because air-fireballs, flight, good air-normals (Kim's j.D, Hotaru's j.2B, etc), airdives, etc. It's broken by everything.
Torpedo is EXTREMELY unsafe no fucking matter what or how you set it up. It can be punished for extremely high damage by ANYBODY.

[Zabel]

Who the hell is going to be throwing out random Torpedoes and not doing lariat on reaction to something it can beat?

[Dark Geese]

The prototypical way I've seen Big played is rushdown cr.a's and Cr. D hitconfirming ala 3s Chun-Li or something (Which I haven't seen many that good at lol) lock you down until you get thrown alot, and use  BD Lariats a lot as AA,

but I play him differently than that, I utilize his instant overhead (Neutral Jump C), his overhead itself (f+a albeit it slow), his jump A/ jump forward B Air to Air, and other things underutilized that Prototypical Big uses may not use to make up for the differences Remzi is talking about.

Basically for torpedo you only throw it out if you know it's going to hit or from a distance which you are certain they can't punish and even then it's too risky..I hitconfirm torpedos off cr.D (and if you don't you die), so it all depends how you play Big.

The way Remzi is talking about if you play him that way yes someone that knows how to punish him will punish him accordingly..but if you play him the way I am playing him hard to get around that...if you jump you'll eat Air to Air jump A,

If you stay on the ground I'll get you with Instant overhead thus setting up cr. b and crouch D to which again I don't see Cookie Cutter Bigs use enough of (Instant Overhead)....NGBC matches coming this weekend a few of them I will use Big!!!

[jinxhand]

Lariat vs flights??? There's only 4 characters who can really do that, and some of their options aren't too great with the exception of a few moves... Who just throws out lariat anyway on the ground when its clear that it can be ducked under??? Only good use outside of AA is to combo, and that's on a rare occasion... I never said that there weren't moves that beat lariat, I just said its one of the best AAs in the game -- not "the" best, but "one of the" best... Big is strong. I'm sure there's matches to prove that...

If I didn't know what I was talking about, why would a high level player agree with me??? And even if there were some things wrong with my statements, I'm sure he would be glad to correct me in a peaceful manner... I don't have a problem with corrections, I'll be the first to admit I made a mistake (MP's 22BD not being unblockable for example). Disagreement in discussions is fine, just keep those emotions and words in check; this is NOT srk...

Hanzo doesn't need any real combos, he only needs 5A, 2B or just simply 2B to either his kick special, or his super, which does a good amount of damage... If Hanzo teleports so that he can get a cross up j.B, there's not many AAs that can be used backwards to counter this if done correctly... So what if he can't do many different things off of lows. All I'm saying is that all he needs is 2B to his super.

Let's put this in perspective... Here's a match showing what they're capable of doing, as well as showing some of Lee's resets...

[NGBC match] A-cho 1on1 Battle Carnival 2009 (3/8)

[Dark Geese]

That character linked in that match also is Debukun, the #1 NGBC player in Japan according to the Japanese players I've spoken with (including the guy he's playing in that match who is Fujihara)....that's the level of the Lee I am talking about everyone, once Lee gets to that level, he is S Class....


Also Hanzo's Cr. b in itself people forget how good it is...cr.b has excellent range so it can punish a lot of things and hitconfirm into super so for example, punishing Big's BD Lariat Hanzo can do cr.bxxSuper or anything of that nature..

[jinxhand]

Not that this really matters to me, but would it be safe to say that there can be at least 1 tier list based on what characters actually can and can't do in a match-up, and how they can use the game's system to their advantage??? I do agree with the whole fact that tiers change per region, but that's solely based on the players plus what the character can/can't do. With that said, I don't really think there should be 1 character on a tier list more than once. Like for instance, I don't feel there should be a j/f Tung and a regular Tung. If he's placed in mid because of j/f MM, then the player willing to learn Tung needs to simply master this in all situations (combo, AA, etc.) or get crushed-- myself included...

While I was typing that, DOA4 came to mind. Sure, everyone knows that the ninjas are basically top tier, but that alone is simply based on matchups. In the actual game itself, there are charts that shows tier listing based on popularity (how many times "x" gets picked) and strength (how many times "x" wins period [I think vs everybody]). These charts are divided per region, so obviously Tengu might be strong in Asia, but Jann Lee is strong in the states, even though based on the match up chart/tier list, Jann Lee is way higher than Tengu. This might not always apply because of online tactics, but its still something that should be looked at, because I feel that its things like these that help people step their game up. Things like this will avoid situations in where a player from another country plays a typical "low tier" character, and simply takes that money from the tourney because no one practiced against that character for whatever reason.

Anyway, yeah Hanzo definitely has reach with 2B. People also forget how easy it is to builid meter in this game, so doing simple things like moving, or even standing still, meter is still being built, so Hanzo can and should always have at least 1 stock of meter to use for combos. 3 of those combos + some oki, or just 4 combos can pretty much crush any character.

Another thing that I forgot about that makes him pretty good is 9B. His jumping knee has been used alot, especially leading to the dreaded 5A, 2B xx whatever combo... It's not better than just a simple cross up 8B from a teleport, but its still just as good...

As a typical speed character, Lee's speed makes up for his lack of damage. He does have things that eat up life on counter hit though. Plus if used right, the opponent won't know if they're gonna be thrown, command grabbed, hit with an overhead, crossed up, or have their guard broken. He does have some priority vs other characters' strong attacks with his 9D, and a few other attacks.

[Dark Geese]

Plus another thing people forget is that the meter in this game autocharges, so in that helps meter build faster.

[AzureTAG]

What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...

Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?

I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???

Thats the Japanese Tier List that much I can tell you just from looking at it.

American Tier List/future Puebla, Mexico Tier List is this (July 2011):

GOD Tier:

Goodman


S Class:

Big, Kim, Hotaru,

S-:
Hanzo, Marco, Lee (In a Master's Hands he is the Angel of this game, the hardest character to master, but S Class in a Master's hands, I am going to Challenge Mexico to master him, a definite project for KULA...)

A Class:
Neo Dio, Tung, Iori, Kyo, King Lion, Mizuchi, Moriya, Kaede

B: Cyber Woo, Fuma, Kisarah, Goddess Athena, Akari, Mars Peep, Robert, Mudman, Mr. Karate, Haohmaru, Chonrei, Chonshu, Asura, Washizuka, Shiki, Ai (If you can master the infinite which I will get Kula to master just to show you guys how viable she can be in the RIGHT HANDS)

C: Rock, Geese, Mars Peep, K', Shermie, Nakoruru

Bottom Tier:

Genjuro, Yuki

But where is Mai? D:

[Dark Geese]

What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...

Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?

I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???

Thats the Japanese Tier List that much I can tell you just from looking at it.

American Tier List/future Puebla, Mexico Tier List is this (July 2011):

GOD Tier:

Goodman


S Class:

Big, Kim, Hotaru,

S-:
Hanzo, Marco, Lee (In a Master's Hands he is the Angel of this game, the hardest character to master, but S Class in a Master's hands, I am going to Challenge Mexico to master him, a definite project for KULA...)

A Class:
Neo Dio, Tung, Iori, Kyo, King Lion, Mizuchi, Moriya, Kaede

B: Cyber Woo, Fuma, Kisarah, Goddess Athena, Akari, Mars Peep, Robert, Mudman, Mr. Karate, Haohmaru, Chonrei, Chonshu, Asura, Washizuka, Shiki, Ai (If you can master the infinite which I will get Kula to master just to show you guys how viable she can be in the RIGHT HANDS)

C: Rock, Geese, Mars Peep, K', Shermie, Nakoruru

Bottom Tier:

Genjuro, Yuki

But where is Mai? D:

B Class...

[jinxhand]

How is Lee harder to master than Yuki??? I understand knowing the setups and crossups for Lee and knowing the resets, but he doesn't have much in combos, there's only 1 or 2 instances in which something can only combo on counter hit. Other than that, if you can out-manuever your opponent and overwhelm him/her, then it shouldn't be too hard imo... His 360 grab does suck in comparison to some of the other characters' 360 throws...

Yuki on the other hand technically only has 2 safe rushdown moves (sans GCFS), and that's 2D (and canceling to IAD into something else) or the first 3 inputs (hits) of Mutation Combination. Other than that, his 2A sucks, his 2B is ok, but not compared to Lee's. Yuki has a limited air game. In fact, he's only good in the air with a timed 9C, or sometimes 9B, but its not like Iori's jumping B, that's for sure. He doesn't have any normal cross ups that don't involve using a special. Lee has I think 3 crossups, and one of those 3 is a command normal. Yuki can do damage, but it involves a charged special, or comboing with a level 3. Lee can simply do a few combos + oki, and it can be over for the opponent. Yuki has better defensive options though, but most of them are situational (i.e.- Sengoku counter, 214A/C, IAD to avoid grounded projectiles, 236A/C).

I feel Ai can be just as hard as Yuki, only because she simply has weird normals, with weird priorities. Same goes for her specials. Alot of them are simply unorthodox, but still have their uses when the setup calls for it. For instance, she's one of the only characters whose projectile can act as a good AA with the right spacing + she can summon tetris and hit it across the screen; I would say Mudman has that same ability, but there are plenty of ways to get around that if you know that he can only have 1 straight, 1 arc, and 1 super out-- the real problem is knowing the order in which the come out and running through them. Her counter is only good for projectiles only, I believe.

Geese, while is one of my favorites in this game, is definitely not the one of the stronger versions of Geese. I feel he's lower, even though he has great normals that can be used to punish, especially standing C. He can do damage, but its only in the corner, and when its midscreen it requires blue canceling at least once (although I think there's one combo he can do that allows oki with reppuuken). Nakoruru is weak, too, but I feel she's stronger than Geese, primarily due to her better combo in the corner that can be added with a 1 stock super, vice Geese, who requires a lvl 3 super to actually combo a super in the corner. Her specials can avoid some projectile spamming, as well as close the gap between her and the opponent. Her command normal actually has good priority, too.