The Tekken Tag 2 Thread

[Saitsuofleaves]

Ah T4 Jin.  Even as a Tekken Scrub, I've seen and heard the horror stories.  I'd object more if he wasn't so damn badass in his hoodie.

But all I need is a trainer to help me absorb the knowledge better.

[baccano1932]

Well who wants to set the over under on how long til unblockables get nerfed?
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2012/1/2/ttt2-killing-hawk-combosetup-cross-counter.html

[Saitsuofleaves]

Uh, pardon my ignorance on the subject but, other than that dirty Unblockable Crossup setup, I don't really see why the fear is necessary.  Outside of the Crossup setup, which was used like twice in the 10 minutes of video, biggest damage I saw was 50% with the Wall, which seems...quite normal for TTT2. 

Help me out on here to see why this setup seems so...detrimental to the health of the game.

[baccano1932]

Uh, pardon my ignorance on the subject but, other than that dirty Unblockable Crossup setup, I don't really see why the fear is necessary.  Outside of the Crossup setup, which was used like twice in the 10 minutes of video, biggest damage I saw was 50% with the Wall, which seems...quite normal for TTT2. 

Help me out on here to see why this setup seems so...detrimental to the health of the game.

Well for starters some of the combos actually did like 75% damage(the very first combo in the video does) second of all the entire video is just Hwoarang and Bryan meaning that other character combinations are still capable of doing things not shown in the video in addition to this people will always fear the unknown since it's still possible that there are even more powerful combinations of characters that just haven't been discovered yet.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Uh, pardon my ignorance on the subject but, other than that dirty Unblockable Crossup setup, I don't really see why the fear is necessary.  Outside of the Crossup setup, which was used like twice in the 10 minutes of video, biggest damage I saw was 50% with the Wall, which seems...quite normal for TTT2. 

Help me out on here to see why this setup seems so...detrimental to the health of the game.

Well for starters some of the combos actually did like 75% damage(the very first combo in the video does) second of all the entire video is just Hwoarang and Bryan meaning that other character combinations are still capable of doing things not shown in the video in addition to this people will always fear the unknown since it's still possible that there are even more powerful combinations of characters that just haven't been discovered yet.

Well rewatching some of the video, I don't think that combo was repeated, so maybe it's situational.  And yeah, character combinations could change everything, but it's a lot better to wait and see on that front.  They have until the next holiday season to tweak this out for the console release, best not to accidently neuter too much before then.

[FataCon]

┻━┻ ︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵ ┻━┻

[Saitsuofleaves]

Of course...I am a Tekken noob and I'm probably completely wrong...

EDIT: Post 1000...god damn.

[jinxhand]

Well i'd still suggest you get on it pronto since as it's been pointed out learning Tekken is a daunting task and most people quit fairly early on, whether it's the insanely long move lists, timing intensive combos,stage specific/postion specific combos and so many other little deatils that seperate the average player from the real good players i'd say that you absolutely must a)be willing to spend many hours learning situtional and character specific details b)join Tekken specific sites to help learn from more experienced players and c)perhaps most important is the fact that the online is god awful and you likely won't be able to get in any decent matches unless you have people to play with offline.

You sound like you're talking about VF more so than Tekken...

From my experience, those that learn Tekken who quit do so because of how strong Steve is vs the rest of the cast. Some quit because of how sketchy throws are in that game, where you can beat out some moves with a throw. Some quit because they can't get past breaking throws...

Either way, it's not that bad... Just learn defense, breaking throws, stair-stepping, and you should be good for starters. Look out for those lows and throws. Oh yeah, don't just sidestep, sidewalking does wonders also.

I don't really see how what I said leans more towards VF? Personally i've never heard of anyone quitting Tekken because of a specific character outside of T4 Jin and maybe one or two people in TTT because of the Ogres. Throws beating out certain moves isn't exactly a big deal in my opinion all things considered and given the number of options you have and that outright avoiding throws isn't very hard as long as you use your movement tools properly.Well the thing that most people tend to have trouble with is recognising and reacting to the different kinds of throws, for example depending on what arm is extended forward you need to break it using the corresponding button opposed to just one basic input that breaks all throws, in addition to this certain characters like King also have ground throws and things of that nature that many people find hard to adjust to. Also I would argue that Stair stepping isn't as important or as good as Korean Back Dash is in T6 or in TTT2.

insanely long move lists - They're pretty long, especially when you look at characters like Pai, Shun, and Aoi
timing intensive combos - You can't mash out combos in VF, and its now even longer in FS
stage specific/postion specific combos - Wall combos, and situations galore
and so many other little deatils that seperate the average player from the real good players - Same with VF, I think its harder though...

I believe the first 3 points are what made me think that...

Yeah I also meant KBD not stair-stepping... I have a bad habit of calling them the same thing when I know they're not...

Of course...I am a Tekken noob and I'm probably completely wrong...

EDIT: Post 1000...god damn.

lol

[Proto Cloud]

Game is still gonna be the crack, but yeah, I after seeing that I remember why I ain't competitive in it.

[baccano1932]

Well rewatching some of the video, I don't think that combo was repeated, so maybe it's situational.  And yeah, character combinations could change everything, but it's a lot better to wait and see on that front.  They have until the next holiday season to tweak this out for the console release, best not to accidently neuter too much before then.

Well thoose kinds of 75-80% damage combos aren't really situational(for Hwoarang at least) as well some other characters such as Lars who also can do a tonne of damage easier than other chaarcters which is also an issue since in the case of Hwoarang it takes much less effort to do more damage than other characters during juggles.Also they(Harada and Namco) are open to patching the arcade version of the game and have already released a patch although no one has been able to figure out what the patch was for, so we may not have to wait until console for changes to be made.

insanely long move lists - They're pretty long, especially when you look at characters like Pai, Shun, and Aoi
timing intensive combos - You can't mash out combos in VF, and its now even longer in FS
stage specific/postion specific combos - Wall combos, and situations galore
and so many other little deatils that seperate the average player from the real good players - Same with VF, I think its harder though...

I believe the first 3 points are what made me think that...

Yes thoose things are most closely associated with VF however I find people overblow just how deep it is as many people whom i've talked to over the years as well as myself believe that Tekken and SC don't really get as much credit as VF even though they are equals in different aspects and that VF has sort of attained this "sacred cow" status and many people who don't follow these games sort of overlook just how deep they are.

[jinxhand]

I believe VF, Tekken, and SC are all in the same category as having solid and deep gameplay, it's just different aspects of depth-- people don't like to accept that fact however, and continue to enable "FG prejudice".

For instance, you don't have to worry much about lows and throws in VF as you do in Tekken, but in VF you have more options in many cases regardless of frames, but frames still hold more value in VF than in SC or Tekken. But at the same time, there's things like "nitaku"(two-choice or forced option select) and "ETEG"(evading throw escape guard) that aren't in Tekken or SC. SC has a block button with plenty of options from that more so than having options from attacks, and your position in the stage can have more of a serious effect than in VF or Tekken (VF's taking more of this approach with hybrid stages, though) since you can nullify some potentially strong combos by moving in the air, at the risk of a ringout, or a setup leading to that.

Movement I think is more important in Tekken because while you can't get ringed out, having poor movement can get you locked to the wall, or because your hitbox is slightly closer than it should be, that df+2 now just launched you leading to a 45%-70% combo.

To me, VF is great, it's not the "holier than thou" of a fighter most say. I strongly believe it was the packaging that made people think the game is deeper than the other 3d fighters. Hell, Kakuto Chojin was just as deep as VF imo, as was Last Bronx. Again, this is all my thoughts and opinions though...

Anyway, whatever with that setup. Just don't tech and take whatever damage is coming. It's not that much anyway. I don't think it deemed a nerf though.

[Proto Cloud]

I believe VF, Tekken, and SC are all in the same category as having solid and deep gameplay, it's just different aspects of depth-- people don't like to accept that fact however, and continue to enable "FG prejudice".

I take issue with this part of your argument, other than that, learning VF and Tekken is like learning rocket science compared to KOF and SF.

[jinxhand]

I believe VF, Tekken, and SC are all in the same category as having solid and deep gameplay, it's just different aspects of depth-- people don't like to accept that fact however, and continue to enable "FG prejudice".

I take issue with this part of your argument, other than that, learning VF and Tekken is like learning rocket science compared to KOF and SF.

VF and Tekken aren't that bad. The stigma with VF is that there's so many options and things to do, but you have to know the frames, and know the hit types (and flashes) to be able to figure out what to do. Whatever with that!!! I can say I'm a pretty decent Jeffry, and after not playing for awhile, I can still hold it down without necessarily knowing all of that. Even in FS Sega's making it easier so people don't really have to worry about frame counting, 'cause most cats don't sweat themselves crunching the numbers. You just know from your gut what to do and when. Simple.

The stigma with Tekken is "OMG I can't break throws". There's also the "there's so many characters and I have to know all block strings to counter properly". It's not that ridiculous imo. The more you play, the easier it gets. You don't have to carry a small notebook with all the character data to be a solid player. I remember at one point during the TTT days people were crying about not being able to chicken. Just like throw breaks, just practice that joint and get in there and apply it. It's not rocket science.

As for SC, it's easy to get into, but I still feel that it's deep just in a different way. Situational awareness is far more important in this game. There's no Korean Backdashing, Taiwan Stepping, but there's wavedashing for some. Range plays an important part of the game. Not too much zoning can be done in VF or Tekken, but it can be done in SC. Knowing options off of a successful parry based on the parry type plays a role also. It's not just a successful evade, or a successful low parry with 1-2 options or a 50% combo.

As for KOF, some people still can't get past learning the jump types or inputs even after learning about shortcuts. I'll just stop there with that. SF-- well there's the 1-frame links which takes time. Knowing what to counter with what (not counterpicking) plays more of a role. I think SF4 is easier to learn though. 3S is more like what you're talking about. Well, not to derail any futher, let's get back on TTT2.

I'm like how they brought back the netsu system, I'm not liking the whole like/hate system. I don't remember it being in the first one, I just know that certain teams had tag specific moves or combos.

I'm wondering how my Feng/Paul team will play out...

[baccano1932]

The stigma with Tekken is "OMG I can't break throws". There's also the "there's so many characters and I have to know all block strings to counter properly". It's not that ridiculous imo. The more you play, the easier it gets. You don't have to carry a small notebook with all the character data to be a solid player. I remember at one point during the TTT days people were crying about not being able to chicken. Just like throw breaks, just practice that joint and get in there and apply it. It's not rocket science.

I'm like how they brought back the netsu system, I'm not liking the whole like/hate system. I don't remember it being in the first one, I just know that certain teams had tag specific moves or combos.

Well in regards to turtling or "chickening" i'd say that movement through things like KBD(especially back when they didn't have walls and i'm glad to see larger stages in TTT2 than in T6 but thats a different discussion altogether) and side stepping while constantly moving is the best way to turtle since it does much more to limit your opponents offensive options,can be used to bait certain moves and is more effective than simply trying to block things or waiting for your opponent to get frustrated or impatient and overall turtling requires you take different types of actions compared to other games.

There also was a sort of like hate system in TTT it's just that generally speaking it was the same for each character whereas for the most part now most characters have a lot of variation from partner to partner.

[jinxhand]

The stigma with Tekken is "OMG I can't break throws". There's also the "there's so many characters and I have to know all block strings to counter properly". It's not that ridiculous imo. The more you play, the easier it gets. You don't have to carry a small notebook with all the character data to be a solid player. I remember at one point during the TTT days people were crying about not being able to chicken. Just like throw breaks, just practice that joint and get in there and apply it. It's not rocket science.

I'm like how they brought back the netsu system, I'm not liking the whole like/hate system. I don't remember it being in the first one, I just know that certain teams had tag specific moves or combos.

Well in regards to turtling or "chickening" i'd say that movement through things like KBD(especially back when they didn't have walls and i'm glad to see larger stages in TTT2 than in T6 but thats a different discussion altogether) and side stepping while constantly moving is the best way to turtle since it does much more to limit your opponents offensive options,can be used to bait certain moves and is more effective than simply trying to block things or waiting for your opponent to get frustrated or impatient and overall turtling requires you take different types of actions compared to other games.

There also was a sort of like hate system in TTT it's just that generally speaking it was the same for each character whereas for the most part now most characters have a lot of variation from partner to partner.

Oh my bad, I was referring to the option select aspect of chickening, where you'd hold a button while doing a move to quickly chicken if an opponent were to do a reversal (i.e. - doing Kazuya's wgf while holding 2 to be ready for a f+2+4 input if you were reversed).

As for the netsu, there's just too much hate all around... Maybe it's their way of "balancing" it...