Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

[Tanner]

Here's a list of tier charts from top players around the world:
http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13335.shtml#

-Kane317


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I'm making this thread because the other one got closed over a ridiculous argument.  

But Tanner, it's too early for tier lists and this game is very balanced, herp derp there is no reason for a tier lists thread.

People need to understand the basic concept of these threads.  Tier lists are a great starting point for discussion about character's weaknesses and strong points.  Any one with half a brain knows that tier lists are opinions of players and not set in stone.  They are supposed to be discussed, questioned and frequently changed.

Anyone with a weird personal issues about tier lists please keep it out of this thread.

[JennyCage]

This is my early tier list:

http://tiny.cc/u7uzi

Each character in the same horizontal row I consider roughly the same tier (i.e. Robert is not necessarily better than Benimaru, but he is more all-purpose).  Anything below the center horizontal line is mid tier, not low tier.

My experience is limited to online and some matchups like Chin are a little hard to judge (not many Chin players).  I'll probably feel completely different about this list in a few months.  

[GO4PRO]

I'm surprised you have King where she is. What do you think of her that would cause you to place her so high? Above the likes of K' and Claw Iori at that. And Robert the best?

EDIT:

My experience is limited to online

Oh. Zoning characters like King would be tough to face online. If this really is all of your experience then it makes sense now.

[LouisCipher]

Yeah, ya' gotta' take online as it is right now with a grain of salt. Hell, I know you can do Clark's B SAB on wakeup but online is another story and it will get beaten out by pretty much any regular attack regardless of how you time it.

[JennyCage]

I'm surprised you have King where she is. What do you think of her that would cause you to place her so high? Above the likes of K' and Claw Iori at that. And Robert the best?

I don't think you read my post.  Robert isn't the best, he's just the most all-purpose of my high tier.  Robert has more options than any other character on the top row.  That's why he's all the way to the right of all-purpose.  But as I said everyone in the same horizontal row I consider in the same tier, some are just more difficult to play or have less options than others.  It doesn't mean the options they -do- have aren't good enough to compete with the more well-rounded high tiers.

Also the reason I put King where she is because she has great control of the screen at any position.  Her zoning is problematic but that's just part of her package.  She has great hitconfirms, easy and decently damaging drive cancels, high priority on tornado kick vs just about anything in the air and it can be made relatively safe with proper spacing.  Getting in on King is almost as hard as getting in on Ash and when I do get in I have to constantly be afraid of ex trap shot and the easy drive cancel shenanigans that follow.  Her normals are also very good.

This is all just my opinion but she's one of the most problematic characters for me to deal with and it's not really because of her zoning.

[nax]

Oh. Zoning characters like King would be tough to face online. If this really is all of your experience then it makes sense now.

er..King is pretty up there offline too.  zoning would give her a slight edge for it being online but it's not taking away anything she already has.  zoning is good but its not why she's probably in the top characters.

[GO4PRO]

I would definitely put her in the "has weaknesses" quadrant. Just because it's hard to get your opponent off you without meter. She has no good reliable reversals without it. In such a offense-oriented game, not having a regular invincible move is a weakness.

I did read your post, it's just that whoever is higher on the x and y axis means he/she is the best, even if that isn't what you intended.

[FataCon]

Also the reason I put King where she is because she has great control of the screen at any position.  Her zoning is problematic but that's just part of her package.  She has great hitconfirms, easy and decently damaging drive cancels, high priority on tornado kick vs just about anything in the air and it can be made relatively safe with proper spacing.  Getting in on King is almost as hard as getting in on Ash and when I do get in I have to constantly be afraid of ex trap shot and the easy drive cancel shenanigans that follow.  Her normals are also very good.

I'm not going to knock on her, but I played her since arcade so I'll just note a few things:

- Her drive cancels are relatively weak. Midscreen drive cancels don't lead to much damage on their own without spending some super meter. Even her her Trap Shot > Tornado Kick HD loop does subpar damage thanks to damage scaling due to the number of hits.

- Tornado Kick (all versions) is a terrible anti-air. Even if you bait a jump by throwing Venom Strikes, even an EX Tornado Kick will get beaten by a lot of jump-ins. It's best left to combos, using the D version to poke in neutral, or punishing roll attempts while zoning.

- King and Ash have very different zoning games. King can zone from more positions due to having aerial projectiles. Not only that, but Ash has an actual anti-air. Ash can make better use of projectile recovery if an opponent jumps at him, he can just Nivose. Not only does King have more recovery time on her projectiles than Ash, she has to spend meter for an EX Trap Shot if she wants to guarantee that anti-air.

- EX Trap shot is a lot of hits, which means it scales terribly. Like I mentioned earlier, King's drive cancels midscreen aren't much to worry about. EX Trap Shot also doesn't really push back on block, so it's baitable on her wakeup or in other situations. Getting King to burn meter also cuts down her options, so she has to be very efficient throughout the rounds, even if she's anchoring.

I still play King on my main team, so don't take it as me saying she's a bad character; she definitely isn't. Her console changes weren't very dramatic, to be honest, so I'm still not quite understanding how she suddenly shot up from mid-low in arcade to high in console.

[ELTRO]

Anyone knows if there's a recent tier list from Japan and Mexico. I'm interested where they place their characters.

Also I feel the Kyo (XIII) is definitely top five imo. Such a strong character and Jacks of all trade. Feels to me he's like arcade K' but not as beast.

[Dandy J]

i agree if i had to pick 1 character out to be #1 i think it would be normal kyo. lots of contenders though

[Kane317]

i agree if i had to pick 1 character out to be #1 i think it would be normal kyo. lots of contenders though

Agreed, and I'll throw Yuri and Saiki as contenders for the top 3.

[Poko4Sho]

I don't think you read my post.  Robert isn't the best, he's just the most all-purpose of my high tier.

You're using the graph wrong, then.  Top right of each quadrant is "best" of that quadrant.  So, top right of quadrant one means, top tier & all purpose.  
Think of the top right of the graph as an extreme, top right is the best position, the closer you are to it, the better, even if you're in quadrant 2.  So, top right of quadrant two is the best of quadrant two.  
Now, bottom left is what you don't want to be close to, that is the worst of the worst, even though IMO nobody is the "worst".  Bottom left means has weakness and low tier.  
I've seen a lot of people using the graph incorrectly...it doesn't matter if you get your point across, but that's not the case here.

I guess I can toss out a top five while I'm here, I don't endorse tier lists, it confuses the hell out of new players and gives them a false feeling of understanding.  Just for kicks though, my personal top five is (in no particular order).

K'
Kyo
Claw Iori
Kula
Benimaru

[JennyCage]

I don't think you read my post.  Robert isn't the best, he's just the most all-purpose of my high tier.

You're using the graph wrong, then.  Top right of each quadrant is "best" of that quadrant.  So, top right of quadrant one means, top tier & all purpose.  
Think of the top right of the graph as an extreme, top right is the best position, the closer you are to it, the better, even if you're in quadrant 2.  So, top right of quadrant two is the best of quadrant two.  
Now, bottom left is what you don't want to be close to, that is the worst of the worst, even though IMO nobody is the "worst".  Bottom left means has weakness and low tier.

I'm pretty sure anything on the same vertical level is the same tier.  Do you know why?  Because I made the list and because I said so.  You really don't need to post some longwinded explanation of how the list "should" work in your estimation when the the properties of the list are dependant on the individual making it.  If a character is on the same vertical level as another, they are the same tier.  If a character is farther right than left, the character is more all purpose.  It's really quite that simple.

You guys know you can make your own lists, right?  I never realized when I posted mine I'd have 3-4 posts nitpicking it.  Maybe if I'm lucky someone with aspergers will nitpick this post too.   

[Poko4Sho]

I'm pretty sure anything on the same vertical level is the same tier.  Do you know why?  Because I made the list and because I said so. 

Ever had math class?  They teach you how to use graphs, you don't just make that stuff up.  I'm just trying to help and tell you the right way to do it, if you want to get upset, I could care less.

[JennyCage]

I'm pretty sure anything on the same vertical level is the same tier.  Do you know why?  Because I made the list and because I said so. 

Ever had math class?  They teach you how to use graphs, you don't just make that stuff up.  I'm just trying to help and tell you the right way to do it, if you want to get upset, I could care less.

How exactly am I wrong?  To me "all purpose" doesn't mean "best," it means they have tools to deal with situations anywhere on the screen.  Robert has tools for just about everything, but his tools are punishable.  As a whole I put him in the top tier of players and as per my criteria of what "all purpose" is, he fits it the best.  So how did I use the chart wrong?

This has less to do with math and more to do with the semantics of "all purpose."