Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

[Great_Dark_Hero]

Daaaaaaaaaamn. This thread has never been so active!

[Crimson_King15]

you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.

Also when have I said Kim hasn't won a major? He just won evo last year...
Bala still uses iori on his main team...
Verna has verna won a major?
Lacid has but mostly with goro work.lol

Iori is still capable of hanging with and beating top characters. The discussion wasn't who can be effective against top tier it's who is the most effective.lol

Duo Lon won majors and stuff to might as well say he is top 5 also by your logic...

[Frofighter]

you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.

Also when have I said Kim hasn't won a major? He just won evo last year...
Bala still uses iori on his main team...
Verna has verna won a major?
Lacid has but mostly with goro work.lol

Iori is still capable of hanging with and beating top characters. The discussion wasn't who can be effective against top tier it's who is the most effective.lol

Duo Lon won majors and stuff to might as well say he is top 5 also by your logic...

I know this response is late, but I haven't been to the thread in a while.

Saying "National Pride" for players using Kim is like saying people play Iori for "KOF '98 loyalty and nostalgia": It does nothing to change the fact that both of these characters are incredibly good and have probably merited top 10 (if not better) places in the KOF XIII tier list. Also, Dandy J is saying more than "Kim is on these teams and they're winning majors". He's already discussed several powerful proprties of the character that make him difficult to fight against, and these properties constantly get showcased by all the players Dandy J mentioned who win as Kim. Honestly, I don't have a conclusive opinion myself on who is better of the two even though I lean towards Kim's stronger track record, but that difference (if it's there) is VERY minor.

Also, this discussion happened between me and Juicebox on SCR commentary and I'd like some input: How do people rate Ryo? I personally feel like he's a rising dark horse in KOF XIII thanks to his strong frame traps and midscreen game, as well as highly oppressive corner pressure. His corner damage is also quite high. Then again, you guys probably knew that already. He disagreed and felt Ryo was too obvious of a character and not enough of a standout in anything, going as far as to say Leona , in his opinion, is better, and we kinda left it there. So, opinions?

[Ryujin]

Ryo certainly feels capable of being played in any position. Good spacing game, meterless DP, fast cr.C, and gets better with meter. I don't have enough experience to speak on his normals, but outside cr.C are his normals slow? Predictability might also work against him like Juicebox said. It feels like he's constantly fighting to keep you in his space covered by his fireball, and so he has to make a move to get you there, especially if he's behind in life. He doesn't seem to have tools to fight past midscreen, and his EX ranbu is pretty slow too.

I like this topic, and wanted to know how people felt about Mature too. She seems to occupy a spot in the mid-tier but isn't described in the same veins as your Shens and EX Kyos. I don't feel she's at that level either, but can be incredibly oppressive on point and gets a lot of mileage for 1 meter 1 drive. So what do you guys feel about her placement? Some weaknesses I see are she needs a meter for a reversal, and some of her normals don't stack up as well to other characters normals (save close C).

[davidkong07]

Hi guys,

I wanted to update my personal tier list based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries. My opinions of super top tier have changed dramatically. What do you guys think?

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai

[marchefelix]

Hi guys,

I wanted to update my personal tier list based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries. My opinions of super top tier have changed dramatically. What do you guys think?

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai

Seems reasonable. Just two questions:

1. Why not just call it "S Tier"?

2. Which Kyo do you think has an edge over the other?

[Mazinkaiser]

based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim

The first part it's ok, but the second one? What exactly new was discovered... i missed something? I see almost every finals in the last months and the only thing impressed me was the hwa cross up with rdp b.

[davidkong07]

Hi guys,

I wanted to update my personal tier list based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries. My opinions of super top tier have changed dramatically. What do you guys think?

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai

Seems reasonable. Just two questions:

1. Why not just call it "S Tier"?

2. Which Kyo do you think has an edge over the other?

I don't want to use S tier because S tier traditionally implies some aspect of being broken or unfair, whereas I feel that the difference between the top tier and lower tiers in this game is not quite as significant, as say, AE Yun against the rest of the cast. I believe that regular Kyo has a slight advantage theoretically compared to NESTS Kyo because his damage output with meter usage is much more versatile, but the difference is not significant enough to warrant putting them in different tiers. I think EX iori is significantly better than claw.

[davidkong07]

based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim

The first part it's ok, but the second one? What exactly new was discovered... i missed something? I see almost every finals in the last months and the only thing impressed me was the hwa cross up with rdp b.

I guess I should rather have said, "implementations of recent tech discoveries". For example, Reynald's use of Kim's midscreen HD combo at UFGT, Romance's various Benimaru traps and  various players using advanced EX Iori safe jump setups and counters. All this tech has been around for a few months, but it's only recently that it's actually being implemented successfully.

I just wanted to change my tier list because I honestly believe we can consider EX Iori, Beni, and Kim to be in the same tier as Karate and Hwa now.

[marchefelix]

I don't want to use S tier because S tier traditionally implies some aspect of being broken or unfair

I don't agree with this. To me, S Tier has always meant that the characters stand out really well compared to the rest of the roster, but are not necessarily broken/cheap. For those kinds of characters, there is always an "SS" tier or similar. And besides, "AAA+++" not only sounds silly, but implies even more brokenness than "S Tier" does.

But if you're that adverse to S Tier, then in the case of this game, "S- Tier" is acceptable. It makes even more sense to use this, considering the way you construct your list.

[Killey]

S is easier than AAA+++ lol

In any case, the tier list is pretty compact anyways so it doesn't really matter.

RIP Liz.

[SPLIPH]

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai

I agree with the top tier all the way. That's how I felt for a long time now.

I think anybody in this game will kick ass in the right hands, but it suprises me to see Daimon right next to Terry and Athena. I always thought Terry was a bit underrated despite his lack of tools, but suprises me to see him not in the bottom tier for once. Taking note that Terry/Athena aren't in the bottom tier this time.

I wonder why Billy is so low. I know he has his weaknesses, and not the greatest damage output,  but he just seems so damn good in the neutral game. I remember asking about him before and the only real answer I got was "he's weak against fireball chars". Why is Billy a bottom tier character? How do I take advantage of his weaknesses aside from throwing out fireballs? I'm not up to date with streams anymore, but he seemed very effective even in top level tournament play.

I could say similar for Joe, but people have always seemed to thought lowly of Joe.

Maxima was always considered low, but I find him terrifying to fight without a good sweep.

As for Mai, she always seems to be the bottom character. She has bad vertical reach and poor wake-up game, but aside from that her normals seem so damn good. Is it really all about the wake-up game/reversals?

[Great_Dark_Hero]

AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai

I agree with the top tier all the way. That's how I felt for a long time now.

I think anybody in this game will kick ass in the right hands, but it suprises me to see Daimon right next to Terry and Athena. I always thought Terry was a bit underrated despite his lack of tools, but suprises me to see him not in the bottom tier for once. Taking note that Terry/Athena aren't in the bottom tier this time.

I wonder why Billy is so low. I know he has his weaknesses, and not the greatest damage output,  but he just seems so damn good in the neutral game. I remember asking about him before and the only real answer I got was "he's weak against fireball chars". Why is Billy a bottom tier character? How do I take advantage of his weaknesses aside from throwing out fireballs? I'm not up to date with streams anymore, but he seemed very effective even in top level tournament play.

I could say similar for Joe, but people have always seemed to thought lowly of Joe.

Maxima was always considered low, but I find him terrifying to fight without a good sweep.

As for Mai, she always seems to be the bottom character. She has bad vertical reach and poor wake-up game, but aside from that her normals seem so damn good. Is it really all about the wake-up game/reversals?

While you are right about any of the characters being able to dominate in the right hands, the tier list factors mostly damage output, utilities, and the characters general use of meter. If a player knows exactly what they are doing, that's when a character really does become terrifying, and that is due to the very nature of the game.

On Maxima's behalf, him being low tier might have something to do with him being a bit slow in a particularly fast paced game but most good players can afford it. Most of the characters in the B+ ranks DO require quite a bit of meter to stay functional - the characters most important tools stem from having meter available.
Billy's reversal options occur if he has meter and has a few problems doing a lot damage from mid screen. The thing is though, Billy is extremely good at building meter and his damage output in general is nothing to joke about either when he does actually corner the opponent.  Joe himself does have a practical stun combo off of cr.B and he can zone around quite a bit. But, his safer/best utilities still come from having meter available.... then again, any character that does have meter in this game becomes stronger overtime. Meter = Options. Players like us love having options.

Mai is considered bottom tier because her damage output in general is not going to do her any justice (But, then again, Mai being combo-friendly that is not really her MO in this game - The only time that the Mai player would really have to worry about big time damage is if she does have meter anyhow. She also has to corner her opponent as well. Otherwise, the player is going to have to resort to taking advantage of her mobility, normal moves, mix ups, and small time combos). Mai is rather meter heavy - her better options, safer pressure, and damage output come from actually having meter available. Meter management is extremely important in this game, and frankly there are characters that can handle many situations, even without relying on meter to do so. This why most high level players would utilize Mai as a battery for most of the time. Mai not having a reversal is certainly a hindrance, as she literally needs at least two meters conduct one on reckless opponents.

[davidkong07]

I don't want to use S tier because S tier traditionally implies some aspect of being broken or unfair

I don't agree with this. To me, S Tier has always meant that the characters stand out really well compared to the rest of the roster, but are not necessarily broken/cheap. For those kinds of characters, there is always an "SS" tier or similar. And besides, "AAA+++" not only sounds silly, but implies even more brokenness than "S Tier" does.

But if you're that adverse to S Tier, then in the case of this game, "S- Tier" is acceptable. It makes even more sense to use this, considering the way you construct your list.

Yeah I suppose you're right haha. I'll go with S- from now on haha

[Frofighter]

Tier naming stuff

Yeah I suppose you're right haha. I'll go with S- from now on haha

LOL I'm sure you had bigger concerns writing out this list. Anyway, my curiosity with your list is aimed at Kula. When I weigh what she does against what most, if not all, of the chars in the tier below her do, I don't see how she's that far above them. I don't see anything in her tool set that particularly makes her difficult to handle, especially with knowledge of where the gaps in her offense are. Please enlighten me.