Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

[desmond_kof]

Kim is easy but if you play Elisabeth well enough, she can be extremely annoying and tough.

[marchefelix]

I've been wondering for a while about Saiki's placement on the tier list. Davidkong's tier list from months ago placed him in A tier, right below Vice. He is six spots away from King, the other zoning master (mistress?) in the game.

I've always known that Saiki is very economical with his meter. But it wasn't until I saw DarkChaotix's latest video, which features a 2-meter 100%, that made me think he should be placed higher than he is. King got where she was mostly on her zoning game. Why is it that Saiki wasn't placed higher despite his own zoning game, which in my opinion rivals, or even surpasses, King's?

In my own opinion, King's neutral and aggressive play is a bit better than Saiki. Playing with both, I think landing a regular meterless bnb as well as pushing people into the corner is much easier. I also would say her standing low, relatively safe blockstrings, and easy hit confirms make her an easier character to win with. Doing 100% HD combos takes some work and usually not necessary if you can keep your opponent out.

I also feel her zoning is better because she can change her trajectory and poke people out of the air with her fireball. Air-to-air approach seems more dangerous with limited effort.

About time someone responded to this lol...

I didn't really take Saiki's normals into consideration when I first asked this, and now that I think about it, they don't have the greatest reach. I can't believe something so simple as allowing her to use her fireball in the air really changed her. It really does make you uneasy to approach her in the air, even if you're playing as someone like Kim or Mr. Karate who have decent air space control.

Thanks for the response.

[Reiki.Kito]

No problem. I didn't even think about when you posted it (Sorry modgods for necropost), but I think it was an interesting thing to bring up.

Most of the top players play characters not because they do a lot of damage since everyone can do relatively enough damage to kill anyone (Case and point, Maxima). However, they're just overall easier and more oppressive for the least amount of effort (Case and point, Hwa, Kim, Mr. Karate, Shen). Playing competitively or even playing to WIN is enough strain to make you screw up. Easy characters make it easy for you to win even if you mess up or capitalizing off of more things for higher damage.

[meghnad]

"The Fluke", still billy is also uncommon. Iori is such a good player but Ex Kyo is more famous than him (I personally iori more after seeing Yang Yao Ren playing in MM FT5. He did a combo of 52 hits on round 1 that means no stock or gauge in hand.)

[LoyalSol]

I've been wondering for a while about Saiki's placement on the tier list. Davidkong's tier list from months ago placed him in A tier, right below Vice. He is six spots away from King, the other zoning master (mistress?) in the game.

I've always known that Saiki is very economical with his meter. But it wasn't until I saw DarkChaotix's latest video, which features a 2-meter 100%, that made me think he should be placed higher than he is. King got where she was mostly on her zoning game. Why is it that Saiki wasn't placed higher despite his own zoning game, which in my opinion rivals, or even surpasses, King's?

In my own opinion, King's neutral and aggressive play is a bit better than Saiki. Playing with both, I think landing a regular meterless bnb as well as pushing people into the corner is much easier. I also would say her standing low, relatively safe blockstrings, and easy hit confirms make her an easier character to win with. Doing 100% HD combos takes some work and usually not necessary if you can keep your opponent out.

I also feel her zoning is better because she can change her trajectory and poke people out of the air with her fireball. Air-to-air approach seems more dangerous with limited effort.

They both excel at different things.   I personally love both characters.

King's zoning has a little more flexibility how you can throw out fireballs since you can vary the height, speed, and also make King bounce back using the HK air fireball, but don't underestimate what Saiki can do.  His main perk is the fast recovery of his fireballs and also just how easy it is to set up a meaty fireball situation with Saiki.  Almost off any kind of hit Saiki has enough time to throw out a fireball and begin applying pressure.   It's a little harder to do with King without sacrificing screen position or damage.

One area Saiki outshines King is in a comeback situation.  King just doesn't do enough damage consistently while Saiki can do a crap ton.  Saiki's 2 bar combos do at least 80% and in the right situations can become 100%.  Even the basic 1 bar 1 drive combos deal 50% or better.  King's combos on the other hand cap out around 50-70% without spending a ton of meter.  King is awesome at holding a lead, but coming back from a deficit is something you typically don't want to do with her.

As far as rush down each character has their different tools.  Saiki has a better jump arc for rush down and his air mobility is more suited for baiting anti-airs. Also having the command grab super gives him an option King doesn't have.   King plays a better sustained pressure game from a range

I could list several other differences, but you might get the point.  They each have things they do well that the other character doesn't

[Frofighter]

"The Fluke", still billy is also uncommon. Iori is such a good player but Ex Kyo is more famous than him (I personally iori more after seeing Yang Yao Ren playing in MM FT5. He did a combo of 52 hits on round 1 that means no stock or gauge in hand.)

Is he? I'm sure there have been more EX Iori players recently then EX Kyo, though both characters are very popular (for both logical and nostalgic reasons).

As for Saiki vs. King, I think the discussion covered most of it so I'll refrain from rewording the same comparisons. Regardless, I honestly place them right next to each other as far as rankings go, and that's usually pretty high up (around where David has King on his list).

[The Fluke]

*meghnad. Billy is very easy to play, but my point was that kim has other traits to back him up. Billy is nowhere near as good, but is probably easier to play. I see enough of both versions of iori and kyo as should be expected but i don't think i've ever played against anyone using EX iori's loops.

[NissanZaxima]

I think the tiers are becoming a lot more clear for this game. EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim, Karate, possibly EX Kyo are tops. I think right behind them are characters like Shen, Claw, 13 Kyo, Takuma, Hwa, Chin, Yuri, possibly Duo Lon with recent tourney results. There might be a few more characters sprinkled into that second group that aren't represented as much, and it is also very debatable.

The top group feels to be dominating tournies as far as character representation goes. In theory I think EX Iori and Benimaru are the best because of the ridiculously meter efficient combos they can do if you have the execution. Kim and Karate seem to be generally the best because of how practical their really good stuff is.

This isn't to say that the othe characters aren't viable (because I know someone is going to bring up how Mai and other lower tiered characters are making top 8) but I do think there is a much more noticable gap than before. 

[Coffeeling]

I think it's pretty meh to rate characters in a single list in this game. How do you compare the greatness of Duo Lon, who's a superb point, to someone like Claw or Vice who loves to anchor it up? I don't think you do. Spot-specific tier lists seem much more suitable for this game IMO.

Why the top tier is dominating representation in tournaments is because they're universal - one character can dance with Duo Lon on point, and, placed third, with Claw as an anchor. Having more of them on the team also gives nice perks by enabling the player to game matchups more by shuffling team order around, and some extra benefits if you have to reverse OCV (where a solid low-meter point-style neutral is beneficial for an anchor) or happen to get a hot streak with a point (where you can be more opportunistic with meter use effectively, and your other characters will suffer less for it), though the latter is a bit less relevant because you're winning anyway.
It's the same how you see not top tiers like K' in just about every slot - he just works well enough anywhere, just not top tier well.

Basically, build a team, want a point - Duo Lon fits. Another wants an anchor, so he goes Claw. Or both just like Karate more and play him.

[Killey]

I don't completely agree with your statement. When you rate a character you have to take into consideration every aspect of the game and the characters into consideration. Duo Lon is a great point character but he has multiple weaknesses and isn't very versatile in team positioning so he should be ranked lower than Mr.Karate who is also an amazing point character with very strong tools, less weaknesses, and is good in any team position.

The top tiers being dominant in this game is a combination of their good tool sets, few weaknesses, high damage for little resources, and versatility in team order. They generally have favourable match ups against the majority of the cast and require less time to learn and be effective with than other characters in the game.

This being said, I strongly believe that KoF's 3v3 system and overall game mechanics help mitigate tier disparities to a certain extent. Top tier characters will always be commonly played at high level in any game but KoF is one of the rare games where you can see low tier characters do well in tournaments.

Toshi winning that Peruvian tournament and going even against Bala with EX Iori/Athena/Kensou and TC| Pako getting 3rd at SCR with Duo Lon/Elisabeth/Mai are some of the best examples of this.

[Coffeeling]

I don't completely agree with your statement. When you rate a character you have to take into consideration every aspect of the game and the characters into consideration. Duo Lon is a great point character but he has multiple weaknesses and isn't very versatile in team positioning so he should be ranked lower than Mr.Karate who is also an amazing point character with very strong tools, less weaknesses, and is good in any team position.

The top tiers being dominant in this game is a combination of their good tool sets, few weaknesses, high damage for little resources, and versatility in team order. They generally have favourable match ups against the majority of the cast and require less time to learn and be effective with than other characters in the game.

This being said, I strongly believe that KoF's 3v3 system and overall game mechanics help mitigate tier disparities to a certain extent. Top tier characters will always be commonly played at high level in any game but KoF is one of the rare games where you can see low tier characters do well in tournaments.

Toshi winning that Peruvian tournament and going even against Bala with EX Iori/Athena/Kensou and TC| Pako getting 3rd at SCR with Duo Lon/Elisabeth/Mai are some of the best examples of this.

Of course the universal quality should be accounted for. Even if Karate and Duo Lon both scored, say, 95/100 on "point character goodness", Karate should still be rated higher because of his extra flexibility to stretch into other roles. That's 100% as it should be.

Agreed 100% on the rest of the post.

The thing I'm trying to say here is, though, that we have characters like Duo Lon who's absolutely splendid on point, and atrocious as an anchor. How the hell do you put characters like that on a single tier list? Rate point performance only? Or rate anchor performance, or some odd amalgam of the two? Even more importantly, how can you begin to compare him to someone like Claw or Vice whose reason for existence is to be an anchor and turn meter into a dead character off a touch? When they're built to do different things and usually are not even competing with each other for a slot on the team directly? Like, "Is Duo Lon or Vice better" is a non-question to me. It's just invalid. Which is better as a point, battery or anchor is a question where an answer can be found. And to each of those, we can say that Karate is probably a bit better, and have that answer be a valid one.

[NissanZaxima]

It isn't a perfect science and I understand where you are coming from about certain characters specializing in certain spots.

I feel the top tier in this game can play 1-3 which is what EX Iori, Beni, Kim, and Karate can all do. I am hesitant to put EX Kyo in that group with them because although he is a fantastic point, I don't really see a reason to stick him anywhere else. I think the best teams in the game are any combination of Flame/Kim/Karate/Beni or EX Kyo/(Beni/Karate/Kim/Flame).

The group below specializes in a certain slot but in that slot they REALLY excel.

It's hard to measure tiers in this game because it isn't as Vanilla as a game like SF4, but I think you can generalize characters to a point to where you can say this group is better than this next group which is better than the next and so on.

[NissanZaxima]

A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.

[Frofighter]

A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.

Not that I disagree with your point per se, but I kind of feel that's an unfair generalization of how people look at characters with great screen control. Duolon doesn't just punish stupid play IMO. He and King are such strong point characters not just because they punish rash decisions, but also because they can FORCE them. When either of them takes a life lead, they usually place you in a position where many of your options aren't as effective, and you have to chase. That chasing involves the risk of making a wrong or stupid decision, but they put you in the position where you have to consider that kind of approach.

Again, not that Duolon doesn't make rash idiots look the part (because he does). I just feel like his type of character doesn't get enough props sometimes for what they can do.

[LoyalSol]

It isn't a perfect science and I understand where you are coming from about certain characters specializing in certain spots.

I feel the top tier in this game can play 1-3 which is what EX Iori, Beni, Kim, and Karate can all do. I am hesitant to put EX Kyo in that group with them because although he is a fantastic point, I don't really see a reason to stick him anywhere else. I think the best teams in the game are any combination of Flame/Kim/Karate/Beni or EX Kyo/(Beni/Karate/Kim/Flame).

The group below specializes in a certain slot but in that slot they REALLY excel.

It's hard to measure tiers in this game because it isn't as Vanilla as a game like SF4, but I think you can generalize characters to a point to where you can say this group is better than this next group which is better than the next and so on.

I actually feel though rating based off position is better because for instance while Kim can go nearly anywhere I feel he isn't as good of a point character as a character like Duo because to get the most out of Kim you need at least a couple bars to be a major threat.

A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.

Duo looks as dominant as he does because his neutral game is that dominant.  He has one of the few neutral games where if I have 2 bars you can't jump in any way I can react to, can't just run in, and if you have a character who struggles to punish the rekka > teleport I can go nuts with those.  

Duo is probably the best in the game at holding a lead because of how long it takes to get in on him.  His major weakness is of course he doesn't do much damage himself which is why he suffers in the anchor spot, but early on in the game his damage per meter spent is really good.   When you lack options to deal with Duo that match up is probably one of the hardest to play against.