The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread

[marchefelix]

To semi relate this to XIII, I must say... EX Rising Tackle is awesome, lol. Is it bad I kinda wanna cheer each time I see it end a combo?

Nah. Personally, I think EX Rising Tackle is one of the most visually appealing moves in the game. 

[Kane317]

Anyways, to shift the topic a little and I've been wanting to post this for some time:

I wanted to ask what ppl's opinion of Shen is now.  He's one of the few characters that I feel that since the beginning of XIII actually got better with time as ppl started to learn him more (Vice is another one).  A couple months ago CMD.Duc and I were discussing and I still felt that Shen was slightly behind Iori, but not by much.

After months of using him, I can honestly admit (!) that he's actually better than I thought he was and he's as good as Iori.  They all have their different strong points and weaknesses but I would put Iori around Shen's level.  What do you guys think?

[Diavle]

Shen is the S tier nobody hates.

[Kane317]

Shen is the S tier nobody hates.

QFT.

[Ash]

Anyways, to shift the topic a little and I've been wanting to post this for some time:

I wanted to ask what ppl's opinion of Shen is now.  He's one of the few characters that I feel that since the beginning of XIII actually got better with time as ppl started to learn him more (Vice is another one).  A couple months ago CMD.Duc and I were discussing and I still felt that Shen was slightly behind Iori, but not by much.

After months of using him, I can honestly admit (!) that he's actually better than I thought he was and he's as good as Iori.  They all have their different strong points and weaknesses but I would put Iori around Shen's level.  What do you guys think?

Before I actually thought they were even-ish. But considering that in an Iori vs. Shen match up, Shen can lock him down easier with d.C and jump CD, that's one extra matchup that would make him better =P

Although both make very good use of meter, I read on Japanese forums that Iori is mainly useful if he has meter, whereas Shen can be played with or without. I don't think I've ever seen Iori put in the 1st position in any video.

For drive cancels and HD combos, Iori is only effective with the opponent in the corner or with Iori in the corner if you can do a command throw in a combo. Shen on the other hand is great anywhere on the screen.

There's plenty of other comparable points, but most of it evens out overall, but people play Shen a lot more which does mean something about him being better.

I really don't think we need to compare the two characters too much if they are nearly the same. When it all comes down to it, its about the players playing the characters.

[Kane317]

Anyways, to shift the topic a little and I've been wanting to post this for some time:

I wanted to ask what ppl's opinion of Shen is now.  He's one of the few characters that I feel that since the beginning of XIII actually got better with time as ppl started to learn him more (Vice is another one).  A couple months ago CMD.Duc and I were discussing and I still felt that Shen was slightly behind Iori, but not by much.

After months of using him, I can honestly admit (!) that he's actually better than I thought he was and he's as good as Iori.  They all have their different strong points and weaknesses but I would put Iori around Shen's level.  What do you guys think?

Before I actually thought they were even-ish. But considering that in an Iori vs. Shen match up, Shen can lock him down easier with d.C and jump CD, that's one extra matchup that would make him better =P

Although both make very good use of meter, I read on Japanese forums that Iori is mainly useful if he has meter, whereas Shen can be played with or without. I don't think I've ever seen Iori put in the 1st position in any video.

For drive cancels and HD combos, Iori is only effective with the opponent in the corner or with Iori in the corner if you can do a command throw in a combo. Shen on the other hand is great anywhere on the screen.

There's plenty of other comparable points, but most of it evens out overall, but people play Shen a lot more which does mean something about him being better.

I really don't think we need to compare the two characters too much if they are nearly the same. When it all comes down to it, its about the players playing the characters.

Was waiting for you to chime in.  So to sum it up, you feel they're too similar and the difference are negligible.

I'll agree with most of your points but I don't think Iori is weak as a first character as you make him out to be.  First of all, I feel that most ppl don't play Iori coz they're holding onto the past way too long, and they're not used to the new Iori--not so much coz he's not as good as Shen but that's just my opinion.

I think Iori's crossup B, df.C, and hcf+C, albeit the latter two being slow, are great openers.  Don't forget the df.C is SC-only and you can also HD off of it.  I also think Iori has slightly safer specials too--all-in-all I feel that he's just as competent as a first character but I don't use him (yet) either so we'll take my observation with a grain of salt.

[Ash]

Was waiting for you to chime in.  So to sum it up, you feel they're too similar and the difference are negligible.

I'll agree with most of your points but I don't think Iori is weak as a first character as you make him out to be.  First of all, I feel that most ppl don't play Iori coz they're holding onto the past way too long, and they're not used to the new Iori--not so much coz he's not as good as Shen but that's just my opinion.

I think Iori's crossup B, df.C, and hcf+C, albeit the latter two being slow, are great openers.  Don't forget the df.C is SC-only and you can also HD off of it.  I also think Iori has slightly safer specials too--all-in-all I feel that he's just as competent as a first character but I don't use him (yet) either so we'll take my observation with a grain of salt.

Yeah your sum up is about right.

I actually mean that Iori needs meter more than others, as in a meterless Iori against another meterless character he should be ranked lower as a character, where other characters wouldn't as much. I don't think it's the character change impacts low usage, as newer players don't seem to be picking him up either. Since I play both characters as my current mains. I can give you a little more details.

Iori's cross up is great at first but once people get used to it, it doesn't seem to open up combos any easier than just regular jump attacks against good players. It's better to have a cross up like Benimaru or Elizabeth.

df.C is very slow and nearly unusable by itself as he'll get him out of it most of the time, which is why I barely use it now. In addition to his slow start up, he's punishable on block as well, so it's high risk/mid reward kind of thing. I wouldn't say it's great, but more like good to have the option. His command grab I would say pretty much the same about, as I would rather have Shen's command grab and EX instead.

Iori also does not have safer specials. All his moves besides qcb+B are unsafe. On block qcb+B is just the same as many other special attacks in the game where's it's even frame advantage or very close. During the start up frames while he's dashing, he's very vulnerable which any jump attack or standing poke can hit him out of. Shen actually attacks as his character is moving, but is vulnerable to command throws if done too closely. If done at the right range, he's at even-ish frame advantage just like Iori.

He also has certain weakness that I don't point out purposely. =P

I think for beginner/intermediate players he's similar to Shen. But the higher skill of a player, the more Shen pulls ahead or Iori falls behind.

[MUSOLINI]

personally i think iori also takes more skill to use effectivelly. at least it looks that way to me.

[SAB-CA]

Very glad to see I'm not the only Terry / EX R.Tackle fan, lol. It always takes me back to FFSpecial, where the moves was such a fantastic reversal... Old-school SNK-respect!

-----

On the Iori VS Shen front, in XII, I always felt like Iori was a bit more awkward than I wanted him to be. Though I still personally liked the way he turned out. He had all the tools, but most other characters were easier to get into. I think that applies to XIII, as well, from looks.

Shen is straightforward, and charges in to things in very obvious ways. His EX DM has high utility as a reversal, his EX Uppercut and Throw give him opportunities unusual to such a character, which keep them somewhat unexpected, and he's a brawler that actually has some kinda answer to full screen pressure.

Iori proved with the Tech ref that he's "more invincible than j00!", but only with meters. If he had some of that on one of the normal versions of his new moves, he'd probably be played first more often. It's like they gave him a great character defining trait... but only accessable if he has meters, which most people like to save for amazing-comeback potential, with this game.

Doesn't Shen also build meters better with all the "SHEN WOO PUNC-feint!"s? I'd figure that bit of utility pushes him over the edge for many players.

[Kane317]

personally i think iori also takes more skill to use effectivelly. at least it looks that way to me.

Be that as it may, we're still debating under equal hands, who's stronger or are they just that close.  Perhaps Shen's more inviting for new comers, but doesn't exactly mean he's a better character overall.

Maybe I'll settle that Shen's better without meter but Iori is better with meter.  I think just the fact that he has several invincible Ex moves which is useful on wake up plus his NM is better Shen's (slightly, but noticeable).

[Aenthin]

I always thought Yagami and Shen were pretty much the same in strength with some minor differences. I know Yagami has better anti-air options too. Obviously, he has one from dp+P but a cr.C and neutral hop D works as well. Hop D can also be used for zoning due to its horizontal hitbox and is very meaty when it actually hits. It's still really good after all these years.

Another difference is the issue against projectile users. Yagami might have a bit of a problem without meter but Shen can easily negate projectiles with his qcb+C. On the plus side, Yagami also has more mixup options with his standing close B, df+C and jump b+B. Also, he can backdash faster than Shen.

I also like a few quirks with their command throws. Shen is comboable after f+B but only EX allows you to combo afterwards. Yagami allows you to juggle at anytime his throw connects but in order for it to be used in a combo, you either have to use an EX version or (hyper)drive cancel at a really close range.

SNKp's KOF blog also said something about Shen if I recall. He has to be on the offensive side. Defending with him is a little more difficult when pressured due to his lack of anti-airs. People may have gotten around that though but I suppose it's still true. Yagami can be used offensively or defensively.

[Ash]

personally i think iori also takes more skill to use effectivelly. at least it looks that way to me.

Be that as it may, we're still debating under equal hands, who's stronger or are they just that close.  Perhaps Shen's more inviting for new comers, but doesn't exactly mean he's a better character overall.

Maybe I'll settle that Shen's better without meter but Iori is better with meter.  I think just the fact that he has several invincible Ex moves which is useful on wake up plus his NM is better Shen's (slightly, but noticeable).

Iori has 3 Ex moves with invincibility plus an EX super that can be used on wake up. Only 1 of them is safe on block which is qcb+AC, so we're basically talking about that alone. Both Shen and Iori can use EX command grab on wake up if they're close enough. Shen can do level1 or both level2 supers, just unsafe on block. So he does have options, just not a safe one. His dp+P is only good if using the EX version as anti air, and for Shen he would have to use level2 super to do the same, so another small plus for Iori.

I always thought Yagami and Shen were pretty much the same in strength with some minor differences. I know Yagami has better anti-air options too. Obviously, he has one from dp+P but a cr.C and neutral hop D works as well. Hop D can also be used for zoning due to its horizontal hitbox and is very meaty when it actually hits. It's still really good after all these years.

Another difference is the issue against projectile users. Yagami might have a bit of a problem without meter but Shen can easily negate projectiles with his qcb+C. On the plus side, Yagami also has more mixup options with his standing close B, df+C and jump b+B. Also, he can backdash faster than Shen.

I also like a few quirks with their command throws. Shen is comboable after f+B but only EX allows you to combo afterwards. Yagami allows you to juggle at anytime his throw connects but in order for it to be used in a combo, you either have to use an EX version or (hyper)drive cancel at a really close range.

SNKp's KOF blog also said something about Shen if I recall. He has to be on the offensive side. Defending with him is a little more difficult when pressured due to his lack of anti-airs. People may have gotten around that though but I suppose it's still true. Yagami can be used offensively or defensively.

Mid game air to air Shen has Iori beat with j.CD, s.C, and d.C.

As with what Aenthin said, Iori has a harder time dealing with projectiles, as Shen can slap them away or EX super. Iori can EX super, but can only be done at mid range when the fireball is right next him.

As I said before with df+C it's not good by itself for mix ups, most of the time he'll get hit out of it. If the opponent blocks it, it's also unsafe making it a really risky move. Because of this, the mix up game with overhead is near non-existent against experienced players. Shen also has an overhead, but unsafe as well on block and cannot HD from.

Backdash is also a minor plus for Iori, but he's an offense-based character in this one. Back when he had flames, it was more useful because he had fireball and a better dp.

Also one thing to note is Shen has better mid screen combo juggles and HD. Iori basically is more efficient with a cornered opponent.

On a final note, a huge plus about Shen is his command throw. It works as 1 frame grab EX or not. Iori you'll have to be very careful to use non EX version. This is actually a big factor since it gives a better mix up game without meter. This is probably the main reason Iori needs meter so that he can have the option to dash grab, empty jump grab, or wake up grab. Not only does he need meter to do this, but can only do decent damage if he is near the corner or spend even more meter (which means you won't have much or any left for doing this again).

Also since Iori is an offense base character, most of the time he shouldn't be in the corner and if he is in the corner a lot, it's probably a bad match up or the opponent is just playing better. I can actually make a long list of which character has better moves if needed. But to me overall summary of this issue is:

- Iori and Shen have great offense
- Midscreen zoning games Iori is weaker, but Shen can handle it
- Defense Iori is slightly better (with meter only)

Edit: On a side note, I doubt anyone plays both Shen and Iori as their main team, but if you do, it's pretty obvious that Shen is much better without meter and about the same if both have meter. Grass will always seem greener on the other side so need to play both to feel the difference.

[THE ANSWER]

Shen > Iori but Ash > Shen, seriously Ash is becoming a problem.  

[Kane317]

I'll definitely know when I pick him up eventually, once I'm a little more comfortable with DL you can count on picking Iori up--I'll make him my next pick, who knows, like I'm revising my opinion of how Shen's equal to Iori now, I may revise my opinion later.

I agree that by playing both characters you know their weakness but without playing against an Iori the you don't realize how good some of his stuff are (you'll just have a rough idea). For example, after a bunch of you picked up Chin, I realized how blocking a d.B from Chin then trying to block his overhead feels like you're stuck in that crouching position.  I wouldn't have known until I played against Chins, before that I just thought ppl kept getting hit lol.  I can't remember who was with me but they instantly agreed with me and they were the one using Chin on me.

One more thing about the meter thing, it's not safe to stand near (of course nobody should stand next to a 1 frame command thrower) a waking Iori or Shen when they have 2 meters.  However it's relatively safe to stand next to a Shen when they only have 1 meter, just stand outside his CABC range--it's dangerous, but you can jump Shen's Ex qcfx2+AC DM and most ppl won't risk doing the Ex DM with someone standing at that range.  Iori however, can cover that spot that with his Ex DP and his Ex qcb+AC (I should know, I get hit by all the time).  Furthermore, and correct me if I'm wrong, if Iori connects with his qcb+AC or dp+AC, can't he follow up with a few extra hits?

[Nagare_Ryouma]

Shen was cool, had some nice stuff but in matchups againts really good characters, he wasnt very effective.
Starting from XII, he has improved a lot, certain specials as well as some normals work much much better and he has become an extrematelly solid character.
With Iori I think he is still pretty good, but the change in his moves might have downgraded him a little. He is either the same or a little worse that his classic magatama persona. As a classic fireball spammer, I must say the fireball is what I miss the most.
Iori still to be a little better on the defensive end, even if he requires meter to get invencible on specials.
Of course, I have yet to play XIII, my opinions are based on videos and knowlodge of previous KOFs.
In any case, I am a user and fan of both characters so....