Dream Cancel Forum
Pao Pao Cafe => Social Club => Topic started by: fujifujifujifuji on March 21, 2012, 09:45:15 PM
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SFIV helped revive the FGC.
Now now, you're giving SFIV too much credits. Let's say SFIV never came out, would it means that the genre is doomed? KOF XII was already under development, so did Blazblue. Heck, with all the questionable things Capcom "standardized" in the fighting game development with SFIV, and later on MVC3, I am beginning to question if it might actually be better had SFIV never came along. The FGC never needs reviving, they'll always be those hardened, badass souls who enjoys 2D or 3D pugilism more than anything else.
For me, fighting game is zenith of gaming genre, dwarfing all other lesser escapist games. It takes a special kind of guy to enjoy the thrill of battling against fellow human beings, a fighting game is a proving ground, during the most intense moment you can tell a man's tenacity, determination and cunning. There's no other people here, just you and your opponent...in winning you are elated and proud, in defeat you are angry and defiant.
Man....what a drama eh?
I do get tired of people calling games like KOF, BB, GG, and AH as "anime games" or as SFIV and Marvel 3 as "scrub games".
Too bad that's the view of the majority of people, so you can tell we got a long way to go. But whatever they call it, at least they enjoyed some of the games.
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The FGC wouldn't have died, no. But as much as people would hate to think about it, SF4 existing has helped more than it hurt. If not for that, I GUARANTEE, we wouldn't even have XIII most likely. KOFXII (if it would stay the same) would come out, bomb, and with the lack of a market, SNKP would go on with their actual plans to stop creating FGs.
Streams, heh, might as well give up on those. Sponsorships? Not to the volume we have now. MK probably continues to have no clue how to fix itself.
All that there would be left would be Blazblue MAYBE, Tekken and Soul Caliber. SNKP would be done, Capcom would just focus on other mainstream crap, NRS would fail to make a decent MK9 probably causing them to give up as well. Hell, there's no guarantee that ArcSys continues on.
You're right, SF4 not releasing wouldn't have killed the FGC, hell there'd be no noobs, you'd be enlightened. But ask yourself this...is it worth losing all of the above, on top of likely getting a better chance of getting older, possibly better or at least more beloved games rereleased?
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You both make good points. However, I have a problem with the FG scene being portrayed as something fragile that can be wiped out by one bad move. I'm pretty sure it's not something that's done intentionally, but that's how I think people see the FG scene. I don't think it's fair to say that this one genre is in danger of being abandoned completely just because other types of games are selling better on the market.
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You both make good points. However, I have a problem with the FG scene being portrayed as something fragile that can be wiped out by one bad move. I'm pretty sure it's not something that's done intentionally, but that's how I think people see the FG scene. I don't think it's fair to say that this one genre is in danger of being abandoned completely just because other types of games are selling better on the market.
The scene would live on, that's part of the point I was trying to make. Yeah, it would, but without SF4, we'd lose out on a decent amount of solid games that have come out in the interim.
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Well, cant really add anything here. All of you made good points. Yes' if it were not for SFIV the FGC would not be as big as it is, yes the FGC would die as easily as some people think but we cant give all the credit because some of the things it introduced are just bad. The thing is I couldn't agree more with Saitsuofleaves on
The scene would live on, that's part of the point I was trying to make. Yeah, it would, but without SF4, we'd lose out on a decent amount of solid games that have come out in the interim.
Personally I don't think KoF XIII would come out if it wasnt for the success of SFIV because non of the other games did really good until SFIV came and brought that much attention with it. Yeah the FGC won't die but waiting for a decent game (maybe for you guys, you waited from KoF XI; I waited from 3rd Strike to get a game which I could compare the quality with which is KoF XIII. I didnt know KoF XI back then.)
EDIT: maybe I am too extreme but thats what I think atleast; I could be wrong.
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The FGC wouldn't have died, no. But as much as people would hate to think about it, SF4 existing has helped more than it hurt. If not for that, I GUARANTEE, we wouldn't even have XIII most likely. KOFXII (if it would stay the same) would come out, bomb, and with the lack of a market, SNKP would go on with their actual plans to stop creating FGs.
Streams, heh, might as well give up on those. Sponsorships? Not to the volume we have now. MK probably continues to have no clue how to fix itself.
All that there would be left would be Blazblue MAYBE, Tekken and Soul Caliber. SNKP would be done, Capcom would just focus on other mainstream crap, NRS would fail to make a decent MK9 probably causing them to give up as well. Hell, there's no guarantee that ArcSys continues on.
You're right, SF4 not releasing wouldn't have killed the FGC, hell there'd be no noobs, you'd be enlightened. But ask yourself this...is it worth losing all of the above, on top of likely getting a better chance of getting older, possibly better or at least more beloved games rereleased?
I think you might be giving SFIV too much credit as well. Let's go back. 2006 sounds about right. Back then xbox 180 still had quite an online community. Problem was the online played beyond shitty. Capcom vs. SNK 2 had a decent fanbase, but if you thought any fighting game on the 360 has bad netcode then you ain't seen nothing yet. SF Anniv was even more popular with the SF 3rd Strike matches always jumping and even Hyper SF2 Anniv had enough people to get matches in from time to time. In SRK the online matches were probably even more talked about then, then they are now. True the famous people are talked about more, but you would have the top online players talking back and forth with each other and the other players always going back and forth nagging about this match or that match. When it really comes down to it SF 3rd Strike didn't really get ultra popular till the online community got a hold of it whether this or PC communities. Capcom was alive and thriving cause of online games.
The SNK community wasn't doing so bad compared to now. Back then KOF '03, and SVC lasted at least a year after release community wise before a significant slowdown happened. Sam Sho V, KOF MI, and Capcom Fighting Evo only lasted a few months, but that's par for the course for non popular fighting games now. Thease were considered the bad titles! On top of all of this Dead or Alive 2 was also being played a ton so the 3d community was well represented during all of this as well.
In came the 360. First came DOA 4 which sold like hot cakes. IT was a platinum title in no time flat. Street fighter II Turbo was the community breaker though. A title, which technically had already been released was selling like crazy and people were going nuts over the inproved netcode and quarter matches. This truly ushered in the fighting game boom IMO.
Let's just say Ono went to the bosses and they said we don't have a fighting game development team now and we don't want to subcontract SFIV to DIMPS. Where does that leave everything?
SFII HD Remix would still come out. It STILL would have sold like crazy, but what of Capcom now. IMO more then likely they would have make more HD remix titles. Alpha 3 and Marvel 2 would have been likely choices since a lot of it was not used cause making new 2.5D games are easier then respriteing & rebalancing their older titles. I think if we had more HD remix titles the community would still go nuts. There was a huge clamor for the HD titles after HD Remix was made.
As for other companies. Tekken 6, Blaz Blue, Soul Calibur IV, were already in the making. The game changer might have been KOF XII. My bet would be we would have never seen a rushed version of what we got if Playmore didn't panic. Also the simplified fighting game system would have never happened. What we would have got is something closer to XIII. Same characters (hackers already proved they are supposed to be in the game), game system close to the same as XIII without HD mode (did feel thrown in to me), same rebalanced system. IMO this would have gotten a lot more hype if it was XII, and wasn't lumped into a lot of new titles.
Main point I am trying to get across is the online getting powerful enough and having more options really fueled the online community. Not SFIV. Though it did get a lot of credit to get fresh blood in, the blood that woudl have stayed with fighting games would have probably have came in through another game eventually.
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Hard to say what the FGC would be like without SF4. Probably wouldn't have had nearly as much exposure. Of all the fighters to come out in SF4's wake they really don't utilize Comeback Mechanics and easy mode bullshit, at least to the degree of new Capcom fighters.
But I don't think XII came out to ride Capcom's coat tails. I think SNKP rushed it out because they realized 'Oh shit, we spent over 10 million and we're still not done. We need some quick cash!' and that definitely hurt them, they probably didn't recoup very much.
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Alright fine, fair enough then. You're right on this, I was blind. I give SF4 too much credit.
Maybe everyone's right, maybe it shouldn't have come out and Capcom should've just stayed the company that only released older titles. That way Capcom fans would've been happy and true FGers would be happy with less watered down new games.
I concede my point.
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If weren't for SF IV we will not see that much of an advance from the last years, I mean, you must tell that there was a big difference before and after SF IV
Even DOA wasn't as comparable, since even though was a semi popular launch game, the mainstream exposure wasn't nearly as much as SF IV.
At the same time, the FGC would have grown up, but the actuall support that has gotten the last years would never had happened without that game, which leads to some more opportunities
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Hard to say what the FGC would be like without SF4. Probably wouldn't have had nearly as much exposure. Of all the fighters to come out in SF4's wake they really don't utilize Comeback Mechanics and easy mode bullshit, at least to the degree of new Capcom fighters.
But I don't think XII came out to ride Capcom's coat tails. I think SNKP rushed it out because they realized 'Oh shit, we spent over 10 million and we're still not done. We need some quick cash!' and that definitely hurt them, they probably didn't recoup very much.
Personally if they wanted to make quick cash, it would have made more sense to continue to release old titles. KOF XI would have made the most sense. Plus they were supposed to release NGBC right away. Instead of releasing those titles they paniced cause Fatal Fury Special and Samurai Shodown II didn't sell what they wanted to. Nevermind we were all looking for the newer titles. So, to them, it made more sense to rush KOF XII cause of the hype SFIV was getting though I'm sure being low on cash helped the decision. Personally I think they thought the hype wouldn't last and wanted to release something during it's apex rather then too late. Without SFIV you're looking at a more stable market that would more then likely increase slower, but very steady. It wouldn't look like SFIV is going to be the best it's going to get. Giving them more time to finish and more incentive to release easy money titles in the mean time.
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the rumour that I keep hearing is than SNKP don't wanted to take some advantage of SF IV to rush XII, they did it because they aready were outsourced and needed some quick cash launching whatever thing they had at the moment, I'm sure that at some point they knew that the game will flop hard
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You people still don't understand the impact of SFIV. Much like what Satsu said, the community just wouldn't be the same. It revitalized the FGC unlike any game, like BB, Tekken, GG, KOF, SC, VF and so on. This was the right game at the right time. It revitalized a genre that was struggling because the games were getting way too advanced and had no clear focus. As much as people love talking about the "glory days", a lot of games had a lot of archaic systems (that we still do have and should change) and weren't cutting it for audiences anymore.
For better or worse, SFIV blew up our community, because if not, 3D fighters would have still reigned supreme, 2D fighters would be niche curiosity and basically be a continuation of the early 2000s.
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the rumour that I keep hearing is than SNKP don't wanted to take some advantage of SF IV to rush XII, they did it because they aready were outsourced and needed some quick cash launching whatever thing they had at the moment, I'm sure that at some point they knew that the game will flop hard
Again if they are looking for quick cash, it's cheaper to put KOF XI or NGBC on the system. They are already made and only needed an online system. They were looking at the SFIV phenomenon would only last a short while so they needed to get their big name game in there before they lose the window of opportunity to make the most amount of money. If it was just money pushing them then making a boss character quickly would not have been that big of a deal. They released a game without any boss character that only had 6 stages. They could have at least had the bosses for teams being other teams like Street Fighter Alpha but didn't bother with that either. It screams of rushing to make a deadline, not rushing to make the most quick money.
You people still don't understand the impact of SFIV. Much like what Satsu said, the community just wouldn't be the same. It revitalized the FGC unlike any game, like BB, Tekken, GG, KOF, SC, VF and so on. This was the right game at the right time. It revitalized a genre that was struggling because the games were getting way too advanced and had no clear focus. As much as people love talking about the "glory days", a lot of games had a lot of archaic systems (that we still do have and should change) and weren't cutting it for audiences anymore.
For better or worse, SFIV blew up our community, because if not, 3D fighters would have still reigned supreme, 2D fighters would be niche curiosity and basically be a continuation of the early 2000s.
Nobody is arguing the FGC would be the same w/ or w/o SFIV. SFIV made it's impact and many games started looking at it as the template to make the most money. Dumbing down fighting games to get the new blood in made more sense to the companies then making games for the hardcore crowd.
What is being argued is the FGC would be alive, and doing quite well without SFIV. Now do I think the FGC would be as mainstream as it is? No, however this is a double edge sword. Personally I think we are now on the down slope of this push in the FGC.
We are already seeing too many games being released too close to one another, causing very good games to be pushed to the way side to play more popular titles. Games like KOF XIII and Soulcalibur V are losing their online communities in a matter of a couple of months. Both titles are highly acclaimed, yet cannot sustain their communities. Even Street Fighter x Tekken is not as popular as Super Street Fighter IV was 1 year after release, and we are talking about a game that just got released. On Arcade mode with request match open I can go a match or 2 without anybody coming in during the afternoon. I find it next to impossible to go half a match with the same parameters in SSFIV at 5 in the morning.
The community is starting to get tired of dropping $50 - $60 for a game then x amount more on DLC every few months a new game drops. More then likely the community will only get worse as this continues. Remember Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is coming soon and it is a tag game with 1/2 of their cast the same cast that's in SF x TK. Do you think that will go over well with a community that is already tired of spending so much money? Not to mention Tekken x Street Fighter coming sooner or later. If SFIV came out I don't think the DLC would be as ridiculous as it has become and we would still be on the upswing since we would have never have had that giant spike of interest in the FGC. The newer games would be more spaced out and the older titles, which would be the majority of the games being released rather then the $60 games with DLC that go $15 to $20 more at least, would only top out at $15 where most would be around $10. Very affordable for people wanting multiple titles while still giving you enough money to save up for the big release once or twice a year.
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I'm in agreement with a lot of Bakaboy's thoughts, especially on the future. Where everything is going now is starting to worry me. I would be better for most fighters involved if some would release next year. This year, I've got VF5FS, GGXXAC, DOA5, TTT2, and maybe SG and CC on release, on top of XIII, and a backlog of a few other fighters. The bubble is close to bursting as is, and people coming in because of all the new fighters released might think the genre is starting to die out next year if the hype has died down and people are just playing.
On the effect SF4, like others have said, yes it brought in a lot of people. It made it look safe for developers to push fighters more, for sure, but the amount of people who came into fighters since 09 and expanded their interests past non-Capcom fighters is probably really small. Slowly I'm seeing more people get into and ask about XIII with all the recommendations and viewership out there; makes me really happy, but I doubt other franchises are so lucky. Despite the hype now, GG and VF communities will have an uphill battle to get fans in and keep them there, as do we.
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^ I agree. My best case scenario would be the bubble bursts within 2 years. The companies stop making new games with all the DLC and update titles. Companies from then on would keep it affordable to own the entire game and space their games out giving the titles time to breathe and developers more time to make better quality products.
Personally I think if Playmore sits on any new titles till the worst is over and releases a new title a year or so after, they will be fine. If they try to release MOTW 2 (example) during the bubble bursting, then they are going to lose a lot of money and I'm betting it will finally kill Playmore. Hopefully someone over there is noticing this as well and they are only planning to release cheaper titles for a while.
I think Sega noticed. Vitura Fighter 5 FS being an xbox arcade title shows they know people are not going to go along with being milked for as much money as they can. Hopefully, this will help out the title and the community with support this system of bringing out new games. Showing the companies what the masses are willing to spend on in the future.
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Here's a simple test....who among us here call SFIV their first fighting game? Hopefully there are some, so we can ask them instead about how much SFIV contributed to the reviving of FGC.
If there is none.....well....
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Here's a simple test....who among us here call SFIV their first fighting game? Hopefully there are some, so we can ask them instead about how much SFIV contributed to the reviving of FGC.
If there is none.....well....
I really doubt you'll find anyone here, it would be a miracle really hahaha. :P
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Here's a simple test....who among us here call SFIV their first fighting game? Hopefully there are some, so we can ask them instead about how much SFIV contributed to the reviving of FGC.
If there is none.....well....
I really doubt you'll find anyone here, it would be a miracle really hahaha. :P
^I think he's right. One or two exceptions possibly, but most people here playing anything KOF, 90% have played something well before XIII (CvS1&2 not included).
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well street fighter 4 wasn't my first fighting game but it was the fighting game that got me to take them a little bit more seriously, before then i didn't really play fighting games all that much. that count?
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Nobody is arguing the FGC would be the same w/ or w/o SFIV. SFIV made it's impact and many games started looking at it as the template to make the most money. Dumbing down fighting games to get the new blood in made more sense to the companies then making games for the hardcore crowd.
What is being argued is the FGC would be alive, and doing quite well without SFIV. Now do I think the FGC would be as mainstream as it is? No, however this is a double edge sword. Personally I think we are now on the down slope of this push in the FGC.
They were arguing this in the other thread. Some people thought there would be some alternate timeline where "skill" fighting games would take over the world, which is a laughable idea.
We are already seeing too many games being released too close to one another, causing very good games to be pushed to the way side to play more popular titles. Games like KOF XIII and Soulcalibur V are losing their online communities in a matter of a couple of months. Both titles are highly acclaimed, yet cannot sustain their communities. Even Street Fighter x Tekken is not as popular as Super Street Fighter IV was 1 year after release, and we are talking about a game that just got released. On Arcade mode with request match open I can go a match or 2 without anybody coming in during the afternoon. I find it next to impossible to go half a match with the same parameters in SSFIV at 5 in the morning.
KOFXIII is losing its online community because of a bad netcode, SCV has many reasons for having this, whether it be the lack of SP content, the fact that people now notice the game isn't that good, lack of iconic characters, etc., etc.
SFxT losing steam is very obvious. It's NOT A GOOD GAME. The only reason it's got competition is because it's on Evo and people underestimate how much disdain people have for Capcom as of late. The fact that this game has plenty of glitches, extensive on-disc DLC, Fat Megaman, an inferior Xbox version and rushed out the gate doesn't help matters at all.
You could make an argument that it was like when Capcom used to make fighters within a months of each other.
The community is starting to get tired of dropping $50 - $60 for a game then x amount more on DLC every few months a new game drops. More then likely the community will only get worse as this continues. Remember Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is coming soon and it is a tag game with 1/2 of their cast the same cast that's in SF x TK. Do you think that will go over well with a community that is already tired of spending so much money? Not to mention Tekken x Street Fighter coming sooner or later. If SFIV came out I don't think the DLC would be as ridiculous as it has become and we would still be on the upswing since we would have never have had that giant spike of interest in the FGC. The newer games would be more spaced out and the older titles, which would be the majority of the games being released rather then the $60 games with DLC that go $15 to $20 more at least, would only top out at $15 where most would be around $10. Very affordable for people wanting multiple titles while still giving you enough money to save up for the big release once or twice a year.
I don't agree with this at all. I think TTT2 will do very well, because (NEWSFLASH!) not everyone plays every fighting game. The people that play Tekken are very far from those that play Capcom games. Most people play Tekken HATE SFxT and don't care for SF in general. Not to mention it's coming way into the end of the year. I can't say much for TxSF because we have no real clue when it's coming out. The ones that might have an issue are VFFS and Skullgirls because they both have an uncertain audience.
As for SFIV and the DLC problems? No. For starters, DLC isn't a bad thing at all. I wouldn't mind being able to have basically a new game for cheaper unlike the "good 'ol days" where you paid full price every time. SFIV was pretty much good out the gate. Sure there was the costumes and they were WAY overpriced, but they're not integral to the game at all. They even had a 40 buck Super version and then 15 dollar DLC Arcade Edition. You can't really compare that to having 12 fucking characters locked. That's almost the equivalent of a new game.
I'm not scared at all, because I have faith that SFxT will blow up in Capcom's face and the other companies will take notice.
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As for SFIV and the DLC problems? No. For starters, DLC isn't a bad thing at all. I wouldn't mind being able to have basically a new game for cheaper unlike the "good 'ol days" where you paid full price every time. SFIV was pretty much good out the gate. Sure there was the costumes and they were WAY overpriced, but they're not integral to the game at all. They even had a 40 buck Super version and then 15 dollar DLC Arcade Edition. You can't really compare that to having 12 fucking characters locked. That's almost the equivalent of a new game.
I'm not scared at all, because I have faith that SFxT will blow up in Capcom's face and the other companies will take notice.
I dont mind DLC's as long as they are will priced and good. As for SFxT blowing up, hope that happens and I hope they will learn from their mistakes.
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See I don't mind DLC either, but there has to be a damn good reason behind it. KOFXIII, I can forgive it because it's priced at $50, MK9 had an unfinished character and the rest were completely new. Those are good ways to use DLC. Locking stuff on a disc in a game that doesn't have much value to begin with, isn't a good look in any way. I just don't see how Capcom can't see that by having more content from the get-go they can sell more copies. Instead of bleeding what fans they still have dry.
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well street fighter 4 wasn't my first fighting game but it was the fighting game that got me to take them a little bit more seriously, before then i didn't really play fighting games all that much. that count?
Well, close enough...
So! how do you feel about the FGC currently? is it big and exciting? does it offer new things to look forward to? or does it felt like a small scale hobbyist convention that is going nowhere?
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well street fighter 4 wasn't my first fighting game but it was the fighting game that got me to take them a little bit more seriously, before then i didn't really play fighting games all that much. that count?
Well, close enough...
So! how do you feel about the FGC currently? is it big and exciting? does it offer new things to look forward to? or does it felt like a small scale hobbyist convention that is going nowhere?
well it can be exciting and it does offer me somethings to look into but there are a bunch of things that everyone should work on mostly the arguing sometimes i feel like im at a star wars convention with two fat nerds with one trying to tell the other why the republic is better than the empire and vice versa. though the sense of comradery is nice honestly when i joined i didn't think i would meet a lot of people here as most fighting game forums i browsed around everyone seemed so boring and im glad thats not the case here for the most part
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well street fighter 4 wasn't my first fighting game but it was the fighting game that got me to take them a little bit more seriously, before then i didn't really play fighting games all that much. that count?
Well, close enough...
So! how do you feel about the FGC currently? is it big and exciting? does it offer new things to look forward to? or does it felt like a small scale hobbyist convention that is going nowhere?
well it can be exciting and it does offer me somethings to look into but there are a bunch of things that everyone should work on mostly the arguing sometimes i feel like im at a star wars convention with two fat nerds with one trying to tell the other why the republic is better than the empire and vice versa. though the sense of comradery is nice honestly when i joined i didn't think i would meet a lot of people here as most fighting game forums i browsed around everyone seemed so boring and im glad thats not the case here for the most part
You should join Capcom unity if you didnt do that already. You'll have more fun :P. (no disrespect meant by this)
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well street fighter 4 wasn't my first fighting game but it was the fighting game that got me to take them a little bit more seriously, before then i didn't really play fighting games all that much. that count?
Well, close enough...
So! how do you feel about the FGC currently? is it big and exciting? does it offer new things to look forward to? or does it felt like a small scale hobbyist convention that is going nowhere?
well it can be exciting and it does offer me somethings to look into but there are a bunch of things that everyone should work on mostly the arguing sometimes i feel like im at a star wars convention with two fat nerds with one trying to tell the other why the republic is better than the empire and vice versa. though the sense of comradery is nice honestly when i joined i didn't think i would meet a lot of people here as most fighting game forums i browsed around everyone seemed so boring and im glad thats not the case here for the most part
You should join Capcom unity if you didnt do that already. You'll have more fun :P. (no disrespect meant by this)
nah too big makes it near impossible to actually get to know anybody
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To be honest the forums in CU are pretty bad. Most of the time people complain about EVERYTHING! Some of it is worthwhile but most of the time there's a ton of weirdo conspiracy theorists, people that have no clue what they're talking about and junk. (My favorite are the Megafans) Plus, most of them are very young of age or just plain dumb.
But I feel ya, I like this forum because it's not too big, but not too small. Feels intimate. (No homo) That's the reason I don't feel welcome in the Mayonaka Midnight forums.
Anyways, back on track. Actually, I'm just like Xxenace. I didn't get serious about fighters 'til SFIV came around. I've played a lot of fighters before that, but I think it was more due to the advent of youtube than anything. Because after that I took BB very seriously, dropped SFIV and was able to play games like GGAC and KOFXI with a new understanding.
Basically, before SFIV, I just had no clue what I was doing for the most part and had no idea how to break down a fighting game to its individual components. This is due to the fact that many games lacked a good tutorial that told how to play the game to its fullest potential. It was so bad that some games even had no command lists or just partial ones. If you didn't have the right mindset, you will never be able to crack open a game like that.
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mostly the arguing
Argument is a sign that we take things seriously, well at least we cared enough to argue about whatever it is hahaha. So people are arguing eh?....well that's a good sign, it means that the community is not apathetic to its subject matter.
So some people WERE influenced by SFIV, to the point where they started considering fighting game seriously. So SFIV do contributes greatly to the FGC....but I think every fighting games at one point did this. I mean, if there's no SS2, I probably will not be here. If there's no KOF XIII, no Dreamcancel. Point is, that I believed EVERY fighting games that ever existed at one point, helped the growth of FGC. It just happened to be SFIV for Proto and Xxenace.
So here's my conclusion....the size and influence of FGC depends on the influence of the titles that is currently out there (so far the lasy few years we only got less than 10)...imagine if this is the 90's and we already got internet and youtube and stuff....plus all those hundreds of fighting games, WOW for one thing there'll be ALOT more people playing Karnov's Revenge hahaha. (Still, I can't get over the fact that people need tutorials for bnbs in 2012...that's just sad...but I guess that's the way to go)
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Yeah, but Xxenace and I are but a small fraction of the entire SFIV movement. Most, if not all the FGC at this point either were back because of SFIV, started with SFIV or got in because of GGPO. People who are fighting game oldschoolers aren't as big as people think it is. Numbers for tournaments exploded after SFIV.
I can't really follow your posts because your writing is confusing, but you're making it seem like SFIV isn't a big deal when it really was. Sure every new fighter brings new blood, but what my point is, is that SFIV was QUINTISSENTIAL for ushering in a new of the FGC. Something that Tekken, GGPO, DOA or Soulcalibur couldn't manage. Sure we could've gotten to this point eventually, but how long would it have taken if they didn't make another SF? That's like saying that DaVinci/Einstein/Socrates/Méliés ain't shit because eventually there would be artists/engineers/philosophers that would've come up with the same ideas anyway. Yet we don't. That's because they were ahead of their time and pushed us forward into the future.
And I don't appreciate you making a mockery of people that need tutorials. Everyone has to start from the bottom. I don't suppose you remember your humble beginnings? Are you scared that people that are taught in-game could manage to exceed your own skill? Think about what you're saying, because you're coming off as arrogant and elitist.
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mostly the arguing
Argument is a sign that we take things seriously, well at least we cared enough to argue about whatever it is hahaha. So people are arguing eh?....well that's a good sign, it means that the community is not apathetic to its subject matter.
So some people WERE influenced by SFIV, to the point where they started considering fighting game seriously. So SFIV do contributes greatly to the FGC....but I think every fighting games at one point did this. I mean, if there's no SS2, I probably will not be here. If there's no KOF XIII, no Dreamcancel. Point is, that I believed EVERY fighting games that ever existed at one point, helped the growth of FGC. It just happened to be SFIV for Proto and Xxenace.
So here's my conclusion....the size and influence of FGC depends on the influence of the titles that is currently out there (so far the lasy few years we only got less than 10)...imagine if this is the 90's and we already got internet and youtube and stuff....plus all those hundreds of fighting games, WOW for one thing there'll be ALOT more people playing Karnov's Revenge hahaha. (Still, I can't get over the fact that people need tutorials for bnbs in 2012...that's just sad...but I guess that's the way to go)
let me just add in that ever since i bought sf4 i didn't exactly care for the game i loved it because it gave me the option to play with many different people long before it was just me and my younger brother and maybe a friend here and there and sf4 is also one of the two games that got me the most friends on xbox live that being said it's also why i rely so much on netcode being good for fighting games cause as with any game if the netcode comes out a bit shoddy then the game kind of goes on life support which kinda irritates me
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One of the funniest things about SF4 feels like everyone's acute response to it, including my own. I can concede to SF4 being a resurgence, but I, like a lot of other people are willing to go only so far with praise is because of the game itself. It brought the crowd it brought because of it's brand-name and roster. Capcom played it as safe as it could and brought back the Street Fighter name, and every fighter that casuals and non-video game players knew on sight, plus new, Alpha, and III characters. Judging it then, it felt like an amazing 'meh'. Now it's a 'meh' 'meh', just by comparing it to it's peers this gen. Still good and fun to play, but not spectacular.
I would've wanted that kind of reception for SF3, where people would be happy that the series has changed things, that things at least looked to be moving forward. But, bad timing for III ('97 on I beleive people were getting tired of fighters), and a long haitus of the game simple and recognizable enough to most.
I wish someone could poll the FGC as is to see how much of the American fanbase or scene are playing more than just Capcom fighters; if Capcom games continue to get easier and unappealing, it could feel like Capcom giveth (the resurgenge) and Capcom taketh away.
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I was sarcastic when I said join Capcom Unity. I really had a bad time there. It's filled with childish people who think SFIV is the best fighting game because they didnt play any other fighting game (well there is no possible reason to think that really other than that) or that capcom games are soo good you cant even criticize them.
One of the funniest things about SF4 feels like everyone's acute response to it, including my own. I can concede to SF4 being a resurgence, but I, like a lot of other people are willing to go only so far with praise is because of the game itself. It brought the crowd it brought because of it's brand-name and roster. Capcom played it as safe as it could and brought back the Street Fighter name, and every fighter that casuals and non-video game players knew on sight, plus new, Alpha, and III characters. Judging it then, it felt like an amazing 'meh'. Now it's a 'meh' 'meh', just by comparing it to it's peers this gen. Still good and fun to play, but not spectacular.
I would've wanted that kind of reception for SF3, where people would be happy that the series has changed things, that things at least looked to be moving forward. But, bad timing for III ('97 on I beleive people were getting tired of fighters), and a long haitus of the game simple and recognizable enough to most.
I wish someone could poll the FGC as is to see how much of the American fanbase or scene are playing more than just Capcom fighters; if Capcom games continue to get easier and unappealing, it could feel like Capcom giveth (the resurgenge) and Capcom taketh away.
I had fun playing SFIV at first but the more I played it the more I hated it. I liked the game mostly because of the roster. Well, judging from SFxT I think they will make them easier and unappealing unless SFxT blows up in their faces.
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One of the funniest things about SF4 feels like everyone's acute response to it, including my own. I can concede to SF4 being a resurgence, but I, like a lot of other people are willing to go only so far with praise is because of the game itself. It brought the crowd it brought because of it's brand-name and roster. Capcom played it as safe as it could and brought back the Street Fighter name, and every fighter that casuals and non-video game players knew on sight, plus new, Alpha, and III characters. Judging it then, it felt like an amazing 'meh'. Now it's a 'meh' 'meh', just by comparing it to it's peers this gen. Still good and fun to play, but not spectacular.
I would've wanted that kind of reception for SF3, where people would be happy that the series has changed things, that things at least looked to be moving forward. But, bad timing for III ('97 on I beleive people were getting tired of fighters), and a long haitus of the game simple and recognizable enough to most.
I think people are starting to get to the conclusion that SFIV isn't all that. Seeing how many Capcom people are jumping on SFxT because at least it's not boring. I do have to say I did enjoy it from the beginning, but it just was too slow coming from a background where I played KOF, GG and ST.
The reason SFIII failed miserably lies on its predecessors. It seems people forget just how atrocious and buggy NG and DI are. A lot of people either didn't care anymore after that or had never even heard that 3S existed. Mostly due to it not being marketed at all and not having a console release until anniversary edition.
I wish someone could poll the FGC as is to see how much of the American fanbase or scene are playing more than just Capcom fighters; if Capcom games continue to get easier and unappealing, it could feel like Capcom giveth (the resurgenge) and Capcom taketh away.
I don't think it took away anything. It brought new people that weren't there to begin with. It just seems like it took players away. I really think you guys underestimate this new generation too much, because I was hearing about how The Answer was talking about how most of the KOFXIII community are completely new to the scene, including Juicebox himself.
We came for SFIV and then we wanted more.
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I don't think it took away anything. It brought new people that weren't there to begin with. It just seems like it took players away. I really think you guys underestimate this new generation too much, because I was hearing about how The Answer was talking about how most of the KOFXIII community are completely new to the scene, including Juicebox himself.
We came for SFIV and then we wanted more.
As long as this keeps up, I'll be happy to be proven a pessimist over all this.
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The reason SFIII failed miserably lies on its predecessors. It seems people forget just how atrocious and buggy NG and DI are. A lot of people either didn't care anymore after that or had never even heard that 3S existed. Mostly due to it not being marketed at all and not having a console release until anniversary edition.
Well not just that, for some countries it was because of the console release, it was a dreamcast exclusive. Another reason because of the new roster it didnt appeal for most people and because their old characters are gone.Mostly fighting games were losing their juice at that time I think that affected it the most.
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Not only that the DC was dead in the water here in the states from the very beginning, DI and NG came before it on the DC and were recieved poorly, there were very few cabs of 3S to begin with and the console version marketed the Anniversary edition of SFII first and 3S as a bonus. Basically, 3S had everything going against it.
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3S never took off for a variety of reasons some of which have been mentioned:
1: ZERO publicity for Next Generation coming to arcades in 97. I never knew a 3rd game came out and I read game magazines, I talked to kids about games, I was playing FPS online, I had an N64, etc. I never heard a thing about it coming out, same with 2nd Impact and the masterpiece 3rd Strike.
2: As mentioned, NG and 2I were terrible games. Bad balance, broken mechanics, with terrible music and voices. The sprite work was good and some of the backgrounds (nude hotsprings for one example) were pretty good but they couldn't overcome the other terrible shit with both games.
3: A port did not get released until 1999 on the Dreamcast, and it was a limited release with fuck-all publicity. The game wasn't re-released until 2004 in a compendium with a bunch of other SF games with -again- minimal publicity.
I'm convinced that Capcom wanted 3S to fail in America.
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It's funny and sad how great games are overlooked and neglected by their own companies not just by fans. That goes for everything not just fighting games sadly.
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I remember reading a review for SF3 in I think it was EGM and they basically hated it because there were few characters with fireballs, few charge characters and they hated parrying.
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You sure it was EGM? Remember having an article that named it one of the best fighters of all time (this was years ago and my memory is pretty shoddy so I might be misremembering).
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Some dude on SRK pointed out that a game magazine did a BIG feature on 3S coming out on DC... but it was one of those DC only magazines owned by Sega so.
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You sure it was EGM? Remember having an article that named it one of the best fighters of all time (this was years ago and my memory is pretty shoddy so I might be misremembering).
Yeah, that'd be out of character for EGM, because they were a few reviewers back in the day that actually played fighters decently. I think that might have either been Game Informer or Game Pro.
If I was Capcom, I would've skipped NG and DI entirely after they were received badly and just went straight for 3S. It would've probably done better, but I think the expert mechanics, the advent of 3D fighters and the wacky new cast would've hurt it anyway. I just wonder what would've happened if they released the final version of SFIII like they originally expected they would?
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No, the game isn't that hard. I would say MVC2 is harder because of all the shit you have to memorize to stand a chance. Parrying is nothing but muscle memory and reaction. That's it.
The casuals back in the day didn't get into because of 3D fighters like you said, but to reiterate, the majority of them had no idea the game was even out.
In this AVGN video http://youtu.be/OEVzPCY2T-g?t=24s (http://youtu.be/OEVzPCY2T-g?t=24s) he sounds legitimately surprised when there was a street fighter 3. Not saying James Rolf is a video game expert but he certainly represents the everyman. And if you talk to anyone that played SF2 a lot or had 2-3 versions of the game and ask them about the 3rd game chances are they never heard of it.
I am absolutely convinced that Capcom wanted to bury the title. There may have been some internal shit and the producer or whoever is affiliated with the game like the coders for example may be despised by an executive at Capcom. It's not so crazy when you think about it.
Remember that show The Critic? Amazingly funny show, did good ratings on Fox, but it was cancelled on Fox because the new president in charge wanted to eliminate all the programs green-lighted by the former guy in charge and ordered his yes men to not laugh when watching The Critic in his presence.
It could happen.
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I ended up liking all the SF3's. Even with their inherent problems, it seemed like Capcom took a big step forward with SF (bigger than Alpha), even if most people thought it was more like side-stepping. I must've been one of the few to notice that they released an SFIII (NG I think), and was happy.
I am absolutely convinced that Capcom wanted to bury the title. There may have been some internal shit and the producer or whoever is affiliated with the game like the coders for example may be despised by an executive at Capcom. It's not so crazy when you think about it.
Remember that show The Critic? Amazingly funny show, did good ratings on Fox, but it was cancelled on Fox because the new president in charge wanted to eliminate all the programs green-lighted by the former guy in charge and ordered his yes men to not laugh when watching The Critic in his presence.
It could happen.
You make a convincing argument, though I'd hope the yes men thing was really false. I still love The Critic too.
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No, the game isn't that hard. I would say MVC2 is harder because of all the shit you have to memorize to stand a chance. Parrying is nothing but muscle memory and reaction. That's it.
It really is. (Boy, does everyone here act like every game is easy mode now?) There's a lot you need to get down to even think of making high level play. Parrying is already hard to grasp from the get go, then add karas, footsies, reads, and even to the point of character specific combos. At least with Marvel 2, the two main things that made a player good was execution and a good team. Marvel has little to no mindgames, that's why I liked Marvel 3 because it now has strategy and the possibility for comebacks. There's not even that much to memorize, it's actually more muscle memory and reactions than you pointed out for 3S. People make out Marvel to be like rocket science when it's anything but that.
I also liked the Critic.
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if they really wanted to kill sf 3, the game would have never been past the second version
33 had lots of problems, the CPS3 was/ is really advanced for 2d graphics, and I guess than doing 2d games for it would have been really expensive yet not worthy since those games would be incredible hard to port to the popular console psx (which I think jojo's was the only port) plus 2d were declining so an only 2d board which isn't incredible cheap as the neo geo couldn't be as attractive to lots of operators
Also the game was lackluster in NG, I guess that they suffered the same fate than SNKP, the game was costing to produce too much and needed to make some bucks quick
Also funny story, I recall hearing than the Naomi was originally and only 3D board (or more than that, a board where the tools for optime 2d games could be hard), but that Capcom convinced Sega to make it a bit more oriented it to 2d since they saw a big business coming with Capcom vs Snk 1, and I guess that they were right if the rumour is true
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I'm not saying the game isn't hard, I'm not that godlike. What I mean is that the game isn't hard for casuals to play against each other. Get what I mean? Idiots that mash buttons, do jumping HK and crouching HK combos, and pick Shoto characters can play with each other and think it's awesome. That goes with any fighter. The casuals can enjoy it so long as they're playing other casuals once they play someone who knows their shit they're going to get raped. That also applies to any fighter... except for SF4 which rewards mashing and random Ultras but that's something else.
My point is that just because Joe Schmoe can't play like Kuroda doesn't mean he can't enjoy a game, especially back in the day before online and you didn't have to worry too much about encountering godlike players.
But the question as to why 3S was made is interesting and I don't think I could answer that one.
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I see what you're saying, but having mechanics people can't grasp and having said mechanics used on them to get bodied turns them off.
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I see what you're saying, but having mechanics people can't grasp and having said mechanics used on them to get bodied turns them off.
true i never could get a grasp on parrying no matter how hard i tried and i get super annoyed when some can parry all my shit with no problem
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if they really wanted to kill sf 3, the game would have never been past the second version
33 had lots of problems, the CPS3 was/ is really advanced for 2d graphics, and I guess than doing 2d games for it would have been really expensive yet not worthy since those games would be incredible hard to port to the popular console psx (which I think jojo's was the only port) plus 2d were declining so an only 2d board which isn't incredible cheap as the neo geo couldn't be as attractive to lots of operators
Also the game was lackluster in NG, I guess that they suffered the same fate than SNKP, the game was costing to produce too much and needed to make some bucks quick
Also funny story, I recall hearing than the Naomi was originally and only 3D board (or more than that, a board where the tools for optime 2d games could be hard), but that Capcom convinced Sega to make it a bit more oriented it to 2d since they saw a big business coming with Capcom vs Snk 1, and I guess that they were right if the rumour is true
Now your story confuses me. I've always been told the Naomi is basically a slightly stronger Dreamcast. Now I never heard of a dreamcast as a 3d only system. Even when it was the Kitana the most I heard 3d wise was it can do a much better job then the Saturn, but the main concern was to make it easy to program for.
I am not 100% sure about all of this and trying to remember all the old Kitana rumors from 14 - 16 years ago was next to impossible anymore.
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Ey ey are we talking about SFIV here or SF3? hahaha anyway, Sf3 is good stuff...but I heard about it too late. So yeah, too little exposure to the public. Plus too drastic a change, it felt simply too shocking for the long-time SF players, had Capcom persevered, SF3 might be successful.
Listen, Proto...all I'm saying is, whether SFIV is a god-given gift to FGC now DEPENDED on what games you hold dear. I completely understand the points (I even agreed they are legitimate) you said about SFIV being the very reason we all have these wonderful fighting games being made again, it's just that I don't agree with it. And so far, everything you said didn't convince me. You'd best leave the issue for a while...it's no big deal.
The same goes for the tutorial bit, I'm not making fun of them. All I'm saying was we managed without tutorials before, why can't we manage now? it's not about "exceeding" my skills, I have very little anyway, it's about newer players needing more hand-holding, and in my view THAT IS NOT RIGHT. But time's changed as I said, and I decided to follow your view that in-depth tutorial is essential and therefore needed.....but here's MY point of view: I think the lack of tutorial is just fine.
I said "Go ahead, but I think it's unnecessary"
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I think the real crime of the SF4 series is that each iteration fixed nothing but added characters and a 2nd Ultra. Compare it to the many iterations of the other SF's and you can plainly see (for better or worse) that new mechanics and some of them being drastically new were added.
SF4 could've been fixed if the reversal window was greatly tweaked, Ultras were nerfed, you gain Ultra by being aggressive and not just taking damage, and imho Focus attacks that absorb more than one hit and perhaps air Focus Attacks.
Just things like that would've resulted in an almost entirely different game.
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At that point though, if you were going to make that many changes, you'd be better served just starting a new series with new mechanics.
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I think the real crime of the SF4 series is that each iteration fixed nothing but added characters and a 2nd Ultra. Compare it to the many iterations of the other SF's and you can plainly see (for better or worse) that new mechanics and some of them being drastically new were added.
SF4 could've been fixed if the reversal window was greatly tweaked, Ultras were nerfed, you gain Ultra by being aggressive and not just taking damage, and imho Focus attacks that absorb more than one hit and perhaps air Focus Attacks.
Just things like that would've resulted in an almost entirely different game.
The main problem for me with SFIV is that its closed, it's not an open game, you cant be creative with it. Unlike its predecessors. The only games now that give you such experience are KoF XIII and BB.
As for SFIII 3rd strike this is just an example of how pro it is.
SFIII: 3rd Strike Kuroda PV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey0T5LL0rbI#)
This is the best SF 3rd strike fighter some of you know him probably.
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Alrighty, Lucifer.
1- Each revision did make the game better. I'd advise you to go back to vanilla SFIV and tell if that was ANY WAY BETTER than the new ones. Vanilla was atrocious, unbalanced and awful in many ways.
2- Reversal windows are the least of people's worries
3- Ultras have already been nerfed since inception. In fact, most characters don't even rely on ultras anymore and only use it as a deterrent.
4- BB isn't as "open" as people make it out to be and each iteration has only made it worse.
The only things that really are wrong in the game are that it has it is very slow and it relies way too heavily on matchups. That's it.
The same goes for the tutorial bit, I'm not making fun of them. All I'm saying was we managed without tutorials before, why can't we manage now? it's not about "exceeding" my skills, I have very little anyway, it's about newer players needing more hand-holding, and in my view THAT IS NOT RIGHT. But time's changed as I said, and I decided to follow your view that in-depth tutorial is essential and therefore needed.....but here's MY point of view: I think the lack of tutorial is just fine.
I said "Go ahead, but I think it's unnecessary"
With that sort of view we'll never get to the heights of RTS and shooters because that's an archaic way of thinking. By thinking, "Well, gee this has always worked before", isn't a correct way of thinking. You neglect to see how far we've gotten with such systems. We now have more players than ever because we have more learning tools available. If we didn't we'd be stuck in the 90s where 99% of players played like total crap because the 1% knew everything and kept it mostly to themselves.
Honestly, I think that you don't like the fact that now there's better pool of players that know what they're doing and wish it was like the old days where if you knew even a little about the system, you'd beat out competition like it's nobody's business.That's like saying well, "I'm going to teach myself baseball because I don't need help from nobody." Look how far that's gotten people. It's all about community and thinking about new ways of bringing more and stronger competition is never a bad idea.
It's fine you don't like having tutorials, but you don't have to be hardheaded about its necessity because I don't see you blowing up EVO anytime soon.
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Alrighty, Lucifer.
1- Each revision did make the game better. I'd advise you to go back to vanilla SFIV and tell if that was ANY WAY BETTER than the new ones. Vanilla was atrocious, unbalanced and awful in many ways.
2- Reversal windows are the least of people's worries
3- Ultras have already been nerfed since inception. In fact, most characters don't even rely on ultras anymore and only use it as a deterrent.
4- BB isn't as "open" as people make it out to be and each iteration has only made it worse.
The only things that really are wrong in the game are that it has it is very slow and it relies way too heavily on matchups. That's it.
Oh QQ and go back to playing SF4 PC with your nude Sakura mod. And it's Louiscipher you dick. Watch Angel Heart. Gahd.
But seriously, changing the mechanics would've fixed the matchup problem. For example: the only reason the low tier characters have a decent chance against Chun/Yun in 3S are specifically because of the mechanics.
1: Not really. Characters were added and have been buffed/nerfed in every iteration, and a 2nd Ultra was added. Nothing too different was put into the game like say the groove system in A3 over A2 or improving the parry system and adding red parries in 3S.
2: The reversal window is a problem and always will be. Ask anyone. And Ultras work in addition to that. Too much reward for mashing that shit out.
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On the contrary. The reversal window was only a problem due to the fact that said reversals are very invulnerable and have the FADC system to make them safe. Take away the FADC system alone, and see how many people trying doing it as much.
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Off-topic from the gameplay talk, but does anyone wish that Capcom could've handled each new version as totally DLC like they did from Super to AE. That's one of the few things I was looking forward to this gen - one-disc support at a reasonable price ($15) while not splitting the fanbase according to purchases.
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They could've easily done that seeing as the original SF4 sold about 6 million copies. But they went with a disc-based release so they could make a few extra dollars. I remember Michael Pachter talking about how much developers make from retail copies and I believe the stores make $10 off the retail price. whereas for DLC Micro$oft and $ony take half. So if they release all the characters from Super for $20 or character packs for $8 or $10 they wouldn't be making as much per sale of a retail copy but they'd probably be making more in the long run given the higher number of people owning a copy of SF4 and having internet access. THEN they could release a disc with all the DLC like with MK9 Komplete.
I can only guess the Jap Executives have their heads up their ass.
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I can only guess the Jap Executives have their heads up their ass.
With the money they're making, probably not. Though doing things differently might be better for them in the long run. More customer loyalty, less people threatening to not buy their stuff day 1 or even boycotting.
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Oh QQ and go back to playing SF4 PC with your nude Sakura mod. And it's Louiscipher you dick. Watch Angel Heart. Gahd.
But seriously, changing the mechanics would've fixed the matchup problem. For example: the only reason the low tier characters have a decent chance against Chun/Yun in 3S are specifically because of the mechanics.
1: Not really. Characters were added and have been buffed/nerfed in every iteration, and a 2nd Ultra was added. Nothing too different was put into the game like say the groove system in A3 over A2 or improving the parry system and adding red parries in 3S.
2: The reversal window is a problem and always will be. Ask anyone. And Ultras work in addition to that. Too much reward for mashing that shit out.
Well now your true colors shine.
First off, I don't play SFIV, you dolt, I hate it. I've said this multiple times, but apparently reading comprehension is too much for a person like you. I only defend it because it's not as bad as some people here make it out to be. It's a solid game, all things considered. I don't like it, but I sure as hell respect it.
Second, I called you Lucifer because your name basically says it. LouisCipher. I'm joking on behest of your name and I thought it was based on Shin Megami Tensei and not some shitty anime.
Third, your comparing it to Alpha 3 which IS A SEQUEL AND NOT A REVISION. Thus it's a DIFFERENT GAME.
And Satsu answered the last one for me. Now I'm done talking to you. I don't need to debase myself with someone that finds FHD to be a good game and trash SFIV only because he thinks that it's the great Satan because everyone plays it and not XIII. Newsflash, there's Call of Duty, look it up. It's a far worse problem. You can keep your hipster ideals to yourself.
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Now you're just misspelling my name to annoy me.
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Now you're just misspelling my name to annoy me.
you're just now noticing this?
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Now I'm done talking to you.
And now please leave it at that.
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With that sort of view we'll never get to the heights of RTS and shooters because that's an archaic way of thinking
I think it is unlikely that fighting games would ever be as big as those two. But sure, it could be bigger that what it is now. Fighting games are very confrontational, only highly competitive people can derive enjoyment from them. Most average people are turned off from such direct competition. Even in FPS you often cooperate with your teams and even if you spent your time underachieving, your team can still win, in RTS you ordered little people or machines around, and your opponent's little people and building, it's very indirect. Fighting games are very direct, very competitive, it's in their very nature that fighting games are repulsive to most.
but you don't have to be hardheaded about its necessity
oh, but I can't change my deeply-held opinion man. Please respect my point of view, even if it's wrong and archaic and old-fashioned, I think it is true. But if you insist, then I'm sorry, and I really think that in-depth tutorials are necessary. There....I believe you are satisfied, hmm? now can we move on?
I have an interesting question that I will ask to everybody: It is an interesting topic, I think.
[spoiler]"Do you believe that fighting games will be as big as RTS and/or FPS some day in the future?"[/spoiler]
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In regards to SF4's effect on the community I feel like the reason people were originally drawn to it isn't only a result of the simplified gameplay elements, rather it has just as much to do with the recoginizability of the franchise and characters to the casual audience and people who had been playing games for a long time were more inclined to play. In addition to this the online component of the game where it managed to maintain a strong online community for an extended period of time which is something most fighting games have struggled greatly at. In other words people may have gone on to be competitive players or played for a long period of time because of the simplified mechanics, I don't feel like it was the reason why they picked up the game to begin with ( Whether or not this distinction is important or not is up to you I just feel like it is. )
When it comes to all this "in depth tutorial vs. learn it yo damn self" debate I think it's worth pointing out that just about every other genre of games takes the time to clearly explain and detail the different elements of gameplay and introduces the pieces in a clear manner, sometimes even to a fault ie: FFXIII. and that ignoring the trend in games to break things down for the player would be a mistake.
In addition to this when it comes to things like combos and other elements of fighting games how many people can say they came up with their own combos, setups etc. and didn't pick them up from an outside source? Who can say they came up with their own HD combos? The point being as things currently stand I don't think most people learn many things on their own anymore regardless if they're a casual or tournament player. They go to Youtube or sites like this to learn things they don't come up with them on their own anymore so why shouldn't the game incorporate tools to help people instead of them scouring Youtube or wherever else .
"Do you believe that fighting games will be as big as RTS and/or FPS some day in the future?"
Yes I believe they can be as big as thoose genres but I think that there are many external factors that are very hard to measure/change. As some of the biggest reasons why these genres are bigger have to with a) the number of people who currntly play said genres and b) the concentration of players in each game, in other words there are more people playing fewer games and c) peoples tastes and preferences in games skews more towards thoose genres opposed to fighting games.
Now you can correct me if i'm wrong on any of these points since in all honesty i'm not all too familiar with either of thoose scenes and this is just my view as someone looking from the outside in so take it with a grain of salt either way.
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Well, last time I try to be intentionally cheeky, some dude will freak out.
As an aside; I always thought of the Alpha series as being revisions of the same game. Like SF2 to CE, Turbo, etc or SF3 NG, 2I, and finally 3S. The story in each revision never acknowledges the events of the previous revision so it's fair to assume.
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A1 to A2 was a pure revision sure. But the story did undergo advancements from 2-3 (other than the Charlie thing for understandable reasons) and the gameplay received quite an overhaul due to the ISM system. Or at least a much bigger one than any other in-series of SF.
However the Alpha series is very wonky in a sense out of its placement. You could probably acknowledge it as both and not be wrong. Capcom as a whole has a bad time with this sort of thing, especially when you look at other series like the Vs. Series from XvSF up until MvC1.
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I think the Alpha series was supposed to be a prequel to SF2 and therefore replace SF1 in terms of continuity. Which makes sense when you think about it. I wish Genki made the cut in the Alpha series.
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I think the Alpha series was supposed to be a prequel to SF2 and therefore replace SF1 in terms of continuity. Which makes sense when you think about it. I wish Genki made the cut in the Alpha series.
It WAS a prequel to SF2, hence why Charlie's endings kept getting retconned until A3. But it didn't replace SF1 in continuity as it was a sequel to SF1. You know, hence why Sagat has his scar at all and the avenue for which Sakura became a near-stalker (she wasn't in SF1, but I'm guessing it's assumed that the SF1 tourney is what drew Sakura to Ryu).
I was just saying, it tends to be weird about either just being revisions or being straight sequels (this is mostly talking about A2 to A3. A1 does not exist).
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I have an interesting question that I will ask to everybody: It is an interesting topic, I think.
[spoiler]"Do you believe that fighting games will be as big as RTS and/or FPS some day in the future?"[/spoiler]
Personally I think that's what Street Fighter IV was trying to accomplish, but IMO they succeeded in part and failed in another.
To me it seemed Capcom tried to make fighting games more cut and dry in that the more you play, the better you will be at the game. In SFIV the moves and combos that really work are quite limited compared to other fighting games. Meaning the strategies are as well. In doing so it puts people on a more even playing field. If player a and player b know all the strategies for each of the characters they are facing, then it comes down to a test of who is more seasoned, in that game rather then who can come up with the best strategy, where knowledge of past fighters would help. This difference shows when the new players hit KOF XIII. They go through all the tutorials, know the deadly combos, yet still get hammered by someone who looks like they know less, but has a better strategy cause they are an old school kofer. In SFIV if you do the missions and spend a little time looking at a couple strategies of the pros, you are going to win over someone who doesn't 95-99% of the time no matter how many fighters they have played. No matter if this is your 1st SF or not.
In doing this you are going to get more players off of other genres cause there is a direct way to get better. If I do what Capcom told me to practice on and play a few matches I can level up my game fast.
From a pros standpoint if each pro know all the situations of the other pro and vice versa then it plain comes down to a battle of who is more skilled rather then someone who does something no one expects surprising everyone then everyone complaining about luck or bad matchups (though at pro level you would think this doesn't happen too much). The more cut and dry you make it the better it is for classifying who is the best.
In doing all of this though you alienate all the older fans. Ones who play the more complex versions and you also alienate the fans who play fighting game to devise new strategies rather being the best at the few that everyone uses. It makes the game look pretty boring after a while.
When it comes down to it it's all in what you like, but when you find a new group of people to play your fighting game, but piss off your old group of people, to me, it doesn't seem like you will grow to be as big as the other genres. Maybe it's just me?
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^It's not just you. Just by looking at some of the latest AE tournament footage, that's sort of what it feels like. Answer said something similar in a Orochinagi podcast a while ago that he thinks SF4 has a skill-cap, where you can only go so far with the game with leveling up.
It explains why more people are saying AE2012 might be forgotten soon in a few years; I wonder if they expect Ultimate to pick up the slack, or if a new Cap fighter will be the new main game. If it's supposed to be Darkstalkers though, I barely half of the SF4 fans moving to that one.
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You guys know that RTS games aren't that big though? There is literally Blizzard and NOTHING ELSE.
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Seriously guys!
No one watched the video, I posted if so no one commented.
No I dont think fighting games will ever be as big as FPS's or RTS's but they can become big. If they become big I think they will turn to the worse, they will become SFIV's or worse maybe because most big games are cash cows.
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Seriously guys!
No one watched the video, I posted if so no one commented.
No I dont think fighting games will ever be as big as FPS's or RTS's but they can become big. If they become big I think they will turn to the worse, they will become SFIV's or worse maybe because most big games are cash cows.
Sorry Tyrant, just watched the 3rd Strike video. The patience of that Q fighter was impecable, especially against Yun. Thanks for sharing that. Good reminder of why I still play that from time to time.
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Sorry Tyrant, just watched the 3rd Strike video. The patience of that Q fighter was impecable, especially against Yun. Thanks for sharing that. Good reminder of why I still play that from time to time.
No problem man, as long as you watched it ;). Well, Kuroda is considered the best SF 3rd strike player, there is a video his Q against justin wong's chun li; you'll have to watch that one too. Thats what you can do in old fighting games, KoF XIII and which you cant do in modern fighting games. Modern fighting games are played because of people are payed to play them (dont have anything against sponsors as long as they bring more attention to the FGC). It's funny how people who call themselves pro charge people to teach them those games
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Starts 3 minutes in:
SBO3 justin wong ricky vs kuroda hayao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD4WnLq6mV4#)
Kuroda is considered to be the best 3S player in the world. And he's good with every character but his main is Akuma and scary as fuck.
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I can see why Kuroda is called the best. Kind of wish he went for a solid victory in the end rather than a time-out, but he still won.
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That's because he was trolling J Wong.
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That's because he was trolling J Wong.
In one final of super battle opera he fucked up and costs his team the finals because of his trolling, then he apologized to the crowed for his trolling; I found it funny.
Because of the skill cap in SFIV some characters just cant win in tournies, in the ON stream Juicebox was saying that his able cant win against rufuse unless he reads the opponent perfectly which is quite impossible. While in other fighting games people could really surprise you.
It's really good to see that professional players are turning to KoF XIII.
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So I finally got around to finishing up watching most of the matches I wanted to watch out of the MLG Winter Championships and came to the conclusion that fighting games do have a shot at being top competitive games.
I mean, when I look at games like Uncharted, Call of Duty and Starcraft, the audience can't take in all the information at once. With shooters you're stuck with one character from one team and have to be watching from their perspective until they decide to change it. This causes you to possibly miss out on key moments of strategy/hype/victory because you can't possibly know where a big moment will commence or how well coordinated they are from just one point of view. This leads to having the announcers fill in the void by telling you what's going on and being excited for you. With RTS games, you're stuck on one view that is constantly moving and they more or less know where they need their camera to be for the action, so you can more or less take everything in because of how slow paced the game is. The problem is that it's slow paced and very much so. It's audience has to come to terms that you're going to have enjoy 15-20 minutes of pre-made building plans before any action even takes place and when it does, one definite strike could spell doom and that's the end of the round. No comebacks, no large scale comeback, he just blew up a few units and some factories, ggs and that's the end of the story.
When you compare that to fighters, it's instantly more recognizable, that it doesn't take an announcer, multiple HUDs, map screens to tell that someone is getting bodied. In just one screen you can tell how much health, meter and rounds they have earned in one look. You can also tell that that combo was very difficult to do and just made that a real match. Basically, if someone is pummeled repeatedly, you can easily tell they're losing. You don't have to keep track of their APM, factories or how much shields and rockets they still have. Honestly, I have no idea how people can watch competitive Starcraft, but then again I don't understand how people can watch Fútbol either.
I truly believe that if fighters keep pushing the envelope and be forthcoming to newcomers, fighters can succeed.
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^Agreed.