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difference is that the kyo combo is only possible in corner. iirc that is.

I can see your point with that specific combo, but Kyo still has mid-screen options that will net him similar damage, I was mostly looking for an example with a very similar input option. 

Again though, when comparing their movesets, their damage, and overall options, it really seems like Kyo should come out on top.  I also believe arguments could be made for the other characters I mentioned. 

On the subject of K' and Raiden, I don't think anyone can really argue against Raiden.  K' I think could use some tweaking, but I don't think anyone playing 2k2UM now is really surprised by his strength, since he's also really beast in that as well.  The main difference that I see is that, in 2k2UM, you can usually pick another character to counter a good K' (King for example).  So far in 13 there doesn't seem to really be a counter to K, although I'm sure we've all seen the occasional Beni or Andy win. 

Please don't think I want Liz to be nerfed because I hate her. I think she's a fine character. The only reason I'd want to see her re-balanced is because I think it would make the game more fun.

You mention Andy as a better candidate for a nerf, and while I agree he's quite strong and has lots of good moves, the difference is that he actually uses most of his moves. If you weaken any one of Andy's moves (uppercut, fireball, elbow strike or kick), it would hurt him badly. Watching most Andy videos, I think you'll notice people employing nearly all his moves in order to win.

Elizabeth's problem is not just that she's strong. It's that her uppercut and uppercut DM are disproportionately strong to the rest of her moveset. Her combination of combos, counters and command-throw SHOULD make her very fun to play and watch (more like Chin, in my opinion), but her combos are just too easy, too safe, and too damaging, so the rest of her tool set just doesn't get utilized.

Call me crazy, but I honestly think she'd be more fun if her uppercut / DM weren't the only thing she did.

Same goes for Raiden actually. No one mentions it much, but I think the characters themselves really suffer from these over-powered moves. They're more fun when they're forced to show versatility.

Well I don't mention Andy in that I think he should be nerfed, but moreso in that I think he's a stronger character overall. 

As far as the DM and uppercut DM being too strong, I rarely see her damage coming from a well placed uppercut, or even lucky trades/anti-airs.  With the most recent vids posted in the video thread, you see all of her damage coming from her crossup, or just good punishment.  Which kind of goes back to what I was originally saying about her being a dial-a-combo simple character.  The majority of the time (Or at least it seems so in vids) she is waiting on a punishment opportunity, or hits a well place counter, or a crossup B, and leads into the combo.  With that being said, I could agree with making her DP unsafe, but I don't think that's going to make people complain any less. 

As far as the DM, again, the damage strictly from the DM seems disproportion to the hate it gets.  I could understand more of an argument based on her being too good of a battery, but when I see them hit the DM I just think "I wonder if that meter would've been better off with an EX move" or possibly saved for later.  Check the most recent vids and you can see, the DM is not where the damage is coming from.  In fact most of the damage I see is from hitting the clean C into whatever, but again, similar comparisons can be made with other characters (Kyo for instance). 

I can understand wanting to see her do more, but honestly, with her moveset, there really isn't much else.  In a game where random damage can lead to huge losses (Via maxmode/drivecancels/etc) trying a more unsafe approach (say... using more cmd grabs) can make a large difference in whether a character is playable or not. 

If anything I find her playstyle to be a little on the boring side, as I myself would mix in more counters and cmd grabs (Probably a bad idea), but if you're going to suggest changes for her, I think something more than "NERF DP/DM!" would be more appropriate.  Honestly though, I look at it the same as Kyo. 

st. C, f+B, dp C, dp A×2, j.D, qcf hcb+P
or
st. C, df+D (1), qcf+K, rdp+B, qcb hcf+P

The damage isn't that far apart.  The important thing to remember as well is how each is going to fair in the match.  For example, without meter Kyo is undoubtedly going to be a superior choice, and also (imo) has an overall better moveset and normals.  He also has a much more damaging NeoMax combo, as opposed to the mediocre combos Liz is provided with (So far). 

Things like that are why I don't understand people continually putting her on the chopping block.  There are considerable reasons to place other characters above her, and unfortunately since we only have theory fighter atm, I don't think a lot of those reasons have come to light (if they ever will).  Obviously I'm not saying this is how things are, but definitely something I myself have considered.

I honestly don't get all the nerf liz talk.  I'm sure we're all watching the same vids, and everything I see makes me think other characters are scarier.  For instance, I find Andy to seem a lot more intimidating.  I also see the damage on pro-rated super sometimes and think "Was that really worth it?"  Raiden I can understand, K' I can understand, but other than being an easy to use, I don't see Liz really staying top 3. I of course haven't gotten a chance to play yet, but I don't think being a dial-a-combo character warrants this much hatred.  Based simply on vids though I feel like Andy is better.  Liz you can zone to a point, while Andy has a better set of normals plus the added benefits of having a fireball and AA dp.  To that effect, an argument could also be made for robert.  

Of course I may be biased, I did really like Liz (L) in XI, but I felt she was only really viable with Leader, since you could punish jumps.  With having that option gone, I feel she would suffer from the same things she did in XI, namely trouble getting in and staying in.  The fact that now you have cmd grab and dp together is sexy, but it doesn't seem like many go for the cmd grab, which is something that may become more apparent to myself once I actually have time with the game.  

So honestly, is the liz hate just because she is so simpo?  Because I'm unimpressed by the damage, especially in comparison to of course Raiden, K', and Andy.

EDIT: I also think Iori, Kyo, Yuri, and possibly even takuma may be better, just to clarify (I don't hate andy, lol). 

Personally I play on a home made Korean Fantasia stick that works wonders for me, but it's always going to be personal preference.  Honestly making a stick yourself isn't that hard, but if I were to suggest anything I'd say go for the TE.  It's a really solid stick that you can many times find on sale (Usually they advertise sales during streams fyi).  They are pretty stable, not too costly, and you always have the side option of adding your own artwork. 

As far as what gate to play, when I play on Sanwas I prefer octo-gate, but most of the time that is when playing SF, in which I primarily play charge characters.  Personally I find it easier to make sure I hit the correct direction when I know exactly where it is, like making sure you are using charge b~f instead of charge b~d/f.  Again it's personal preference though, as some folks like to know they can immediately find the d/f when doing the dp motion (like above).  Honestly though you'll want to keep your motions short and precise in the long run, so either one can work once you've adjusted to it.

Being kind of a primary promoter for KoF in my state, I was recently asked by some locals if we'd be doing the ratio system when we play.  At first I answered "No" because I have yet to see many other vids employing the system.  While the AI vids are more fun to watch to me, I feel like the players getting into the game will feel it unfair that they can't choose K' and Iori, or something similar.  Now I'm also curious about what the current consensus is on the subject.

Obviously the list is still debatable, but what of the actual ratio system and it's usage?  What areas have been heard of using it?  Which areas aren't?

Anyone have any input on the quality of the images?  I have it for ps2 already and am curious if there is a difference.  Heard it mentioned that they used different animation sprites?  Something along those lines @.@;

PS3, I refuse to pay to play online, haha

One other thing you may want to take into account as well, it can be helpful to have team alternates who excel at different types of gameplay.  For example, you don't want all of your character to be ineffective against zoning characters or grapplers, so it can be nice to keep your options open.  It sounds like you already have an idea of who/what you are looking for, but just for anyone else wondering

What crawley said

Do we actually know who suggested the ratio system?  If it was from someone accredited I'm sure we should continue to discuss, but if it was just some whiner who posted on their boards, should we really be validating it?

dreamcancel needs a japanese translator something fierce

What's up guys. First post here, so first off I'd like to say thanks to everyone here for all of the awesome info and videos you guys have compiled/created! This really is the premiere online KoF community.

Now then, just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on this ratio idea. As a ubiquitous competitive standard, I think it's ridiculous. In a tournament setting, I think everyone should be able to use whichever tools are available to them to give themselves the best chance to win, and limiting character selection simply because you don't want to deal with certain tactics or teams goes against that. Sure, K' and Raiden are annoying and I'm sure I'll complain about them when I inevitably fall victim to their shennanigans, but I've also seen plenty of players work around these characters and beat them with a variety of characters. Is the ratio system really encouraging character variety or is it simply a reactionary measure founded on frustration? This isn't to say I "know better than Japan" or anything. Obviously they're leagues ahead of anyone in terms of skill level. However, recall that Japan commonly engages in plenty of other practices widely regarded as anti-competitive here in America, such as single-elimination brackets and character locking. There's just a cultural gulf when it comes to the nature of competition, and I happen to fall on the opposing side.

All that being said, I think AI's implementation of the ratio system as explained by Kane makes perfect sense. In their case it's more of a gentleman's agreement than a hard rule, a situation where a particular community determined amongst itself how they could most enjoy the game, while outsiders who show up and just want to play K' because they like his sunglasses are free to do so. I'm just saying it's not a rule I would support at a national-level competition (something I greatly hope XIII ends up garnering).

Ultimately I just support people playing whichever characters they want for whatever reasons they want. Those who want to win by any means necessary are likely to gravitate towards top tiers, and that's fine. Others may choose characters they are comfortable with or enjoy, and they may end up choosing top tiers as well, who's to say. I mean, maybe there's a player out there who's always been challenged execution-wise, but finds that the technical ease of Raiden's "hold B/D, release at opportune moment" gameplan finally allows him to have fun with the game. Should he be punished for his idiosyncracies as a player by being forced to compose the rest of his team from 0-ratio characters he may or may not have any interest in?

As others have stated, it's going to to be the players who play the characters they enjoy but are also driven to win who are going to rise to the top and show us the really hype stuff. They'll be the ones proposing strategies to beat S tiers rather than rules to gimp them. And I don't think there'll be any shortage of those players when the console version hits. Hell, I plan on being one myself. Way too many interesting characters to know what team I'll be running for sure, but right now I'm big on Ash/Benimaru/Iori, aka Team Handsome Fighters Never Lose Battles (guess who I play in SF...).

This post has gone on way too long, but I feel the need to mention one last thing. The MvC2 hate makes me sad. Sure it's incredibly unbalanced, but it's also managed to sustain a large community for several years with unmatched levels of hype. If XIII achieves a fraction of MvC2's success, balanced or not, I will be ecstatic.

See you folks around!

I'm quoting this post simply because it was well written and presents a thoughtful argument.

On the subject of the ratio system, I think enough folks believe in the Japanese playstyle to go with whatever they suggest, so if they do end up implementing the system I'd suggest NA players follow suit.  If not, then it's a much easier decision to make.

It's not a bad idea, assuming the balance is that bad, but I think further testing would be needed to decide ratios for each character

well the guy I'm planning on going with is actually at AI tonight playing.  So far he's telling me he likes it (The reason I'm plannin on going with him is he can get us free housing out there, lol).  For right now all I can say is some time in November, probably a fri/sat trip.  If you guys see/meet him his name's tristan and he's a loud black dude who will say everything is hot, haha

If you guys postpone/set one for november I may be able to make it, I'll keep an eye on the thread just in case

quick noobish questions: Are throws still 2 buttons like 12 or back to 1?  Also are the links easier link 12 or back to 2k2 timing?