Messages

16

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: April 08, 2015, 06:54:22 PM »

So I feel that discussion here tends to slow down a lot from time to time, and I would like to provide a suggestion to help with that. Take a look at this Dustloop thread regarding Blazblue Continuum Shift: Extend (BBCSEX)

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/
 
*explanation*

After attending IGT, I am feeling inspired enough to try finishing this now. Time for the second writeup, this time on the point heroine of IGT's champion team, King!

Reward Assessment: B+ Rank
King is not about damage overall, but she is capable of some damaging drive cancel combos on par with some of the stronger characters. Her HD damage is where she severely lags behind, but it's not a crippling weakness by ay means. Most of her damage comes from the next category, or the threat of it at the very least.

Neutral Viability: S Rank
King has every space control tool in the book. Between standing A,C,D and crouch C for anti airs, slide for low profile anti airs, j.CD and j. B for air to air , j.D and j.CD for jumpins, she's got a lot, and this is before we get to her great projectile game. Venom Strike is very good, but its air version is what seals this deal by providing a unique angle that no other character can consistently cover, and allows her to win aerial battles especially when backing up. She even gains long range anti airs with meter thanks to EX tornado kick. Neutral is where King shines, her biggest strength by far.

Offensive Viability: B+Rank
King can keep some lengthy, if predictable, hit confirms going. The fear of her crouch to stand B chains and her ability to poke if the opponent tries to escape too early can make her a threat once she gains the advantage, and makes her throw game stronger, giving her hard knockdowns to work with for crossup attempts if necessary. (EDIT THANKS TO EX WILD WOLF) Midscreen, she can reset using standing B into Venom Strike off a B Tornado Kick, which keeps her in a very advantageous position. The predictability is what keeps this lower, as is her potential vulnerability to GC rolls if she keeps canceling into Venom Strike. Her 1-frame Neomax can be a nice one-time surprise off a crossup hop if you so desire a crazy killing method.

Defensive Viability: B+ Rank
Without meter, King has nothing to fend off a disadvantaged state aside from guessing with her buttons if she senses a chance, and although her buttons are good, that is still risky. With it, she gains some situational reversals that can help her out. Surprise Rose (both versions) help her against any errant safe jumps, and EX trap shot and tornado kick are invincible enough for the read situations. Her Neomax is a unique 1-frame option but can be too costly as a defensive measure unless it kills. Good ground-based offense can murder her, and that is what keeps her rank as such.

One chance: C+ Rank
King can definitely keep momentum going her way well with her neutral. That being said, she is always liable to get lit up in big meter situations thanks to her relatively low overall damage. Don't rely on her for comebacks.

Team Flexibility:  B rank
Point: Her spot. This is where she gets to go to work, and mistakes cost far less. Also, the opponent won't have as  many options to get in, augmenting her powerful neutral
Second: Viable spot to consider thanks to her useful drive cancel combos, but makes her more open for opponents to take her out with meter
Anchor: Highly suboptimal thanks to her low HD damage and how unfavorable she compares to the rest of the cast in that aspect.

Current Assessment: A Rank
How can she get this despite having lower ranks all around? Simple: Her neutral really is that good and allows the rest of her game to function well enough to make her very threatening, to the point that opponents have to potentially plan matchups around her. One of the game's elite point characters.

17

General Discussion / Re: EVO 2014 KOF XIII - Player Seeding, Who Should the Top Seeds Be?

« on: June 25, 2014, 07:28:42 PM »

Reynald and Tokido are the top two contenders right now IMO, but that's not to say that a surprise won't happen. It's kind of funny how Tokido has emerged at the top of the Japanese scene considering how all the hype surrounded other Japanese players in the past (Kaoru and Haregoro for example). Korea has kind of fallen off with MadKOF not looking as strong and (as per Koogle Translator) many of the CafeId guys not finding as much time to play (sadly). Don't even know who would make it from Mexico, because I am sure I would place at least one contender to win from there should their top players show up.

Outside the winner, I hope (assuming he's there) that Zero Black has his true breakout performance. He was on the cusp of making top 8 in 2012 and let a pretty huge lead slip against Tokido in 2013. This is partially due my hope that a Terry players makes the grade at last. He is mad good but has had issues keeping his nerve. He is my pick for a dark horse.

18

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: May 06, 2014, 10:47:50 AM »

Your character breakdown seems sound to me. I think Kim's biggest weakness when compared to EX Iori (a in some ways similar top tier) is damage, because both of them have great normals and both of them get hard knockdowns off of bnb's but EX Iori gets upwards 100 more damage on a meterless bnb. Kim still has most of his pressure regardless of having meter so i think that what position he has on his team doesn't matter that much when you're just looking at him. Instead you get to think about whether you need to save a certain amount of bar or drive for your next character for some reason.

My main issue with Kim on point is that he doesn't come out of the box with his EX specials available. That means losing both his best whiff punish and his best reversals, as well as giving more opportunities for safe jumps against him. Understandably that's a weakness other characters suffer from, too, but I think Kim loses more from it because his meter-based tools add that much more to him as strong as he is already.

I agree that it doesn't matter that much but on a comparative basis with some other characters (as will probably be apparent when we get to them) it's enough to not get the full grade here.

19

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: May 04, 2014, 09:50:42 AM »

So here's my shot at Kim. The max rank for any parameter is S. How low can it go? Won't set a bottom. Use whatever sense of scale makes your point in terms of defining balance gaps. I typically wouldn't go below C for example.

Also, NOTHING IS SET IN STONE! This is just my current view, and the goal is to come to a consensus. Preferably, I would hope not to take longer than a week discussing one character so that we can move through the cast at a decent pace. Without further ado, here goes:

Kim Kaphwan

Reward Assessment:S- rank.
 Subpar meterless damage, good damage with meter and in some situations deadly with meter (specific corner HDs). Gets a hard knockdown from just about all combos that lead to safe jumps / mixups, which puts him in his strong offensive state. With more overall damage would be S for sure.

Neutral Viability: A- Rank.
Kim has no options outside his poke range beyond moving forward. He gains more with meter thanks to EX hangetsuzan. Once in poke range he becomes more dangerous thanks to the threat of standing D making opponents more passive, which opens up the rest of his buttons. He can get lamed out thanks to not having any anti-projectile measures.

Offensive Viability: S Rank.
Getting hard knockdowns off of any hit and the amount of pressure he can keep up afterwards is what makes Kim the monster that he is. His buttons both serve to pressure and to contain attempts to escape, and his long hit confirms have many layers of frame traps. He also has an overhead as an added threat when he has HD ready.Has a unique anti reversal tool in air EX Hangetsuzan.

Defensive Viability: A+
With meter, access to the 3-frame EX Hienzan makes safe jumping Kim difficult for many characters. Hou'ou Hiten Kyaku (qcf x 2 +K) is a viable reversal against extended ground pressure, as well as a good anti-air and nets a full combo to the ever-so valuable hard knockdown. Instant Air EX Hangetsuzan helps as a slower, safer optio with tons of invincibility. Meterless, Kim can struggle because his fastest invincible move is D hienzan (8 frames). His 3 frame close D can help, but it doesn't cover above him all that well and can lose to strong jump-ins. Overall, deals well with wakeups, not so much with pressure.

Once Chance: S Rank.
Hard knockdown shenanigans and good HD damage have made Kim one of the leading anchors, and with good reason.

Team Flexibility: S- Rank.
Point: Loses damage output but still has the buttons and the hard knockdowns to work with. Probably weakest position and what stops him from a pure S rank.
Second: Gets more meter to work with which strengthens him in all phases. May have to conserve for his anchor if things get rough which would limit him.
Anchor: Gets all the meter to play with and doesn't have to worry about anyone else. Gives him the most flexibility and maximizes his strengths, typically more so than most of the game's cast.

Current Assessment: S rank.
Kim is a very strong character with great options that put him into favorable situations from which he can keep forcing more pressure and damage. His lack of truly strong meterless options, as well as his neutral being limited in certain areas, are the main factors stopping him from vying for the rank of the best.

EDIT: Decided to take off the minus and make his rank S. He is still not the #1 character but he is definitely deserving of ranking among the very elite.

 

20

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: May 02, 2014, 02:33:24 AM »

It does seem like it could be interesting. Kind of hard to pick a character to start with and give him/her a rating, but if we start with a top character and set a standard, we could work our way down from there.

Sounds good! I think Kim can be a good example to start with, but I sadly don't have time to make an initial write-up at the moment. I'll try to make it as thorough as possible, but of course the goal is to discuss it and come to a conclusion among ourselves.

21

Terry Bogard / Re: Terry Bogard Wiki Submission Thread: Submit your ideas here!

« on: April 27, 2014, 07:42:38 PM »

Wiki updated with Kim matchup! For those who haven't followed the discussions on the FB group for KOF13 players, I am gathering info from fellow Terry players to buff up our matchup section in order to have clearer knowledge on how to fight the cast. I feel Terry is heavily dependent on good matchup knowledge due to the simplicity of his core style, and needs an extra edge. Please let me know how it looks!

22

General Discussion / Re: KOF XIII 10th General Thread: America on Top (@EVO2013), Everyone Back to Work!

« on: April 19, 2014, 04:21:28 PM »

Hey guys next week on the Dream Cancel Live podcast we will be interview Khannibalito with El Colt from Mexico City about his trip to Korea. If you guys have any questions, post them here in this thread (quote this post) we will ask them on Wednesday at 8:30pm Central time.

1. What are the main differences between how different countries that play KOF, if any, that he saw? (In terms of playstyle, character preferences, meter usage ideals, etc.)

2. Who was the best player he faced on his trip and why?

3. What does he think of the current level of Japanese KOF players overall?

4. How does he feel about the current character selection trends in KOF, and what (if at all) does that say to him about the game's balance, especially after what he saw in Korea?

5. How does he feel about his placement in the tournament, and what does he have in mind for future tournaments based on that?



Assuming that not all the above get asked, I am most interested in hearing his answers to questions 4 and 5.

23

General Discussion / Re: The King of Fighters XIII Video Thread

« on: April 14, 2014, 09:29:17 AM »

A playlist from a community gathering in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia! Buster Wolf and Maxato, the Eastern Province reps, take on different players from both Saudi Arabia and Bahrain! Buster Wolf and Maxato are both really old school KOF players. Buster Wolf has actually done very well against high-level competition before, defeating the likes of CafeId's Kensouzzang and Poongko in a tournament held in Dubai, en route to being double-eliminated by MadKOF. Hope you guys enjoy the matches. Commentary provided by yours truly.

 (P.S. sorry for my rather lackluster displays in there).

EDIT: Sorry. Linked the channel instead of the playlist.

24

Kyo Kusanagi / Re: Kyo Kusanagi (Console)

« on: April 13, 2014, 10:23:28 AM »

Who are the Kyo players I should be watching?

Samson K from Kansas City is another one to watch as well

Samson is sick. Got to play him myself and the man's a very good FG player in general. Great teacher, too.

25

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: April 10, 2014, 08:47:48 AM »

So I feel that discussion here tends to slow down a lot from time to time, and I would like to provide a suggestion to help with that. Take a look at this Dustloop thread regarding Blazblue Continuum Shift: Extend (BBCSEX)

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/

To give the big takeaway from this, Xie uses a set of parameters to rate each character and come to an overall rating (NOTE: NOT the average of the above ratings). Here are what he used and how I think we can apply them to KOF (where applicable):

Reward Assessment: A general outlook on a character’s average damage and heat gain, taking into account how often maximum or minimum damage situations can occur. Also assess other potential rewards.

Definitely applicable in terms of average damage and meter gain, as well as how often a character can land full damage based on different combo starters from different situations.


Neutral Viability: A review of how well the character fairs in neutral situations, especially in respect to how the character can shift into an offensive or damage dealing state, as well as avoid being put into a defensive or receiving damage state.

Also highly applicable. Space control options (different angles of aerials, projectiles, jump arcs, etc.) present several good comparison points.


Offensive Viability: An overview of the character’s ability to create damage opportunities when they have the advantage, as well as prevent the opponent from escaping or safely retaliating.

Pretty self-explanatory. Some characters in KOF maintain pressure better than others, while others make up for lack of solid pressure by using potentially damaging mixups and traps.


Defensive Viability: An evaluation of the character’s ability to escape from situations where they are at a disadvantage or create opportunities to retaliate.


Strength of reversals and unique defensive options would weigh the most here.

Versatility: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, a brief assessment of how many options the character has at any given time. Ranks: Very Specialized > Specialized > Well Rounded > Very Well Rounded

Don't know how much we can use this (or how much it would matter) due to KOF's more universal character design when compared to Blazblue.


One-Chance: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, an assessment of how well the character can make a comeback in a one-chance situation. Takes into account meter availability, potential mixups, useful reversals, and damage.

Tough one to use as well. HD combos give many characters a way to "One Chance" a victory. On the other hand, certain characters have much scarier ways to convert their chance (e.g. Vice with full HD and an EX sleeve handy)

Current Assessment: General assessment of all factors. Current placement on the list


Final grade. As noted above, this would not be an average of the above factors, but rather how the factors come together to form the package that is the character.

One I would add would be:

Team Flexibility: How well a character adjusts to being on different spots in a team in terms of meter need/usage relative to their teammates, as well as how they adjust to opponent's different options and resources based on their position

The team dynamic makes a difference as we have pointed out numerous times in this thread.




I think we can do something like this here, where we could have a week-long discussion for each character where one member presents their assessment, and we go back and forth on how we view the different factors and come to a conclusion by the end of the week. Once that's done for all characters we can compile a Dream Cancel tier list based on that. The list isn't the goal, however. The goal is to have a real in-depth discussion of the characters' strengths and weaknesses that can help new information come to light, especially when considering lesser-played characters.

As for which members suggest the character discussions, I wouldn't know how to establish a priority among us, so for now all I can suggest is that goes in turns, and no one member can start the discussion twice in a row.
 

Please let me know what you guys think. If you feel you have a better way to conduct the discussion (timelines, parameters, etc.) do mention that as well.

26

General Discussion / Re: Joypad player needs some advice

« on: April 08, 2014, 08:30:30 AM »

So, hi to everyone@Dream Cancel, I have my first question on the forum... As much as I would like to start playing this game with a fightstick, I just feel it's the best to stick with a joypad because I am a joypad player and 'till now, I played all my fighting games on a joypad, SF2 till today.

Because the Xbox 360 has a pretty bad controller, I bought the MadCatz/Capcom fightpad. I have to admit, in general-I really like that pad. The grip, the buttons, everything about it is great. D-pad, as much as I needed to get used to it, I really think it's good for executing moves. Tried playing a lot of other fighting games, and it's great. For fighting games, it's even better than Playstation controllers, and there's no need to compare it to the default 360 controller.

But, there's one huge problem that I have while playing KOF: hitting hops and hyperhops.
I'm not sure is it something that I can get to work efficiently with time (I practice hops/hyperhops every now and then in training sessions but I just don't seem to improve in that category), or is it something that will mark my playstyle and become a handicap on it's own that I would need to cope with?

Even though my MadCatz pad is in a pretty good condition, I sometimes think the hop issue may occur because I bought it second-hand, or is it maybe a flaw in design that really isn't that much exploited in games that don't have small jump/long jump mechanic, pretty much every other game except KOF). I have no idea what it really is, but hitting the diagonals for jumping feels weird, especially with an hyperhop input. Most of the times I get hyper jumps or regular jumps, sometimes I only jump straight, I really need to concentrate on hitting a hop/hyper hop towards the opponent while in trial mode, and while in actual matches, it's really a pain. I never had this issue in an fighting game, that a basic movement options troubles me that much that even if I position myself correctly (which seems to have a success rate generated randomly, most of the times).

I would love some advice in general, and some advice from other joypad players. Also, did anyone else had that specific issue and maybe thought that it's because of the controller?

Get a feel for how long your thumb is hitting the up/forward or up/back on the pad, and as long as you're still getting normal and super jumps that means you're hitting it for too long. Make a mental note of that and keep shortening the time until you get it right. Alternatively, you can experiment with the "hit down after up" method, where you immediately hit down after your jump direction so that you take your thumb off the jump as quickly as possible. If you haven't played any game that required you to lightly tap a direction before I can see why this would trouble you. I am sure it's doable though because I am sure I have hyper-hopped on pads that were in worse shape than that Madcatz you're using.

As for straight vs. diagonal, keep your input display on so you can see when it happens and adjust your thumb position accordingly. I've been where I thought I was hitting the correct angle for something and it turned out I wasn't. I know what I said feels like common sense but that can go by the wayside when you're struggling. Good luck man.

27

Kyo Kusanagi / Re: Kyo Kusanagi Video Thread

« on: April 07, 2014, 03:34:15 PM »

Who are the Kyo players I should be watching?

Zero Black and CafeId Lacid are the first two names that come to mind for me.

28

General Discussion / Re: KOF XIII 10th General Thread: America on Top (@EVO2013), Everyone Back to Work!

« on: April 07, 2014, 03:13:05 PM »

Holy shit Tokido. That is all. o_o

So it doesn't seem like we're having much of a reaction to the tournament or to Tokido winning it for some reason.... was his win that predictable? The man's been admittedly on a steady rise in KOF, and had already beaten MadKOF prior to the Cafe ID tourney. With Evo coming up I think Tokido has cemented his place as a contender to win the whole thing. Also, I sincerely believe he plays the most efficient and effective Mr. Karate right now.

The odd thing is that all they hype about Japanese players before went to the "pure" KOF players like Haregoro and Kaoru, but Tokido is looking so incredibly strong right now.

Another potential takeaway from the tournament was the character choice.... Every non-conventional character choice was usually ineffectual. Even ET's hyped-up Clark didn't seem to do all that well. A couple Daimon OCVs happened, sure, but it seems like most players have completely gravitated to the pantheon of top characters that have defined KOF XIII tournaments for a while now. Can't blame them, either. I guess I'll forever wish to see Terry make a KOF major top 8.

29

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: March 10, 2014, 07:08:32 PM »

A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.

Not that I disagree with your point per se, but I kind of feel that's an unfair generalization of how people look at characters with great screen control. Duolon doesn't just punish stupid play IMO. He and King are such strong point characters not just because they punish rash decisions, but also because they can FORCE them. When either of them takes a life lead, they usually place you in a position where many of your options aren't as effective, and you have to chase. That chasing involves the risk of making a wrong or stupid decision, but they put you in the position where you have to consider that kind of approach.

Again, not that Duolon doesn't make rash idiots look the part (because he does). I just feel like his type of character doesn't get enough props sometimes for what they can do.

30

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: February 22, 2014, 07:35:16 PM »

"The Fluke", still billy is also uncommon. Iori is such a good player but Ex Kyo is more famous than him (I personally iori more after seeing Yang Yao Ren playing in MM FT5. He did a combo of 52 hits on round 1 that means no stock or gauge in hand.)

Is he? I'm sure there have been more EX Iori players recently then EX Kyo, though both characters are very popular (for both logical and nostalgic reasons).

As for Saiki vs. King, I think the discussion covered most of it so I'll refrain from rewording the same comparisons. Regardless, I honestly place them right next to each other as far as rankings go, and that's usually pretty high up (around where David has King on his list).