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Messages - Coffeeling

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If I was summing up a guess to why the KOF XIII hate it would be the push of combos in a fighting game system that never pushed it as much before. If you look at '98, KOF is mostly footsies based.

I agree with this. I love playing KOFXIII but one of my main grips is that it is extremely combo focused and dominate. All you need to do in KOFXIII is just hit confirm well then not drop the HD combo. In '98/'02 it's a more spacial game, you can win just off poking, good zoning, good pressure, good mind games and bnb' can do a little bit of that in KOFXIII but it can all go to waste if you screw up and get hit once against someone that has a decent amount of meters. >_<

The "you just have to hit confirm well and not drop the HD combo" is an exaggeration and you know it. HD combos aren't a factor for the first character, and usually for either the second or the third one. The lesser emphasis on single hits still stands, though, but especially in the early rounds shorter combos can do just fine, and even later on something like button, button, EX super can do 400-500 easy, two bars no drive. If your neutral game is really superior, you can easily kill the opponent with easymode stuff.

General Discussion / Re: The Official What's Streaming Now Thread
« on: February 14, 2014, 01:36:05 AM »

Reynald and Mr.KoF are streaming a practice session!

If I was summing up a guess to why the KOF XIII hate it would be the push of combos in a fighting game system that never pushed it as much before. If you look at '98, KOF is mostly footsies based.

This would be like taking the Marvel vs series and making Marvel vs. Capcom 4 with ridiculously toned down combos, and high footsies priorties. The OG Mahrvel community would go nuts.

I think combos are just the easy scapegoat. Sure, some people really dislike the combos.
But compare:
KOF 98 Cafeid Madkof vs China Team
KOFXIII Exhibition - @A3Religion Vs. SS Zeal

It's not really the combos that are on display in the second video. They're just playing the neutral game and trading short sequences for the most part. What's interesting is that the neutral game looks a lot different. '98 is a lot more static, measure-distance-of-pokes-to-the-pixel style, very Street Fighter -esque if you will, while 13's high horizontal movement rate compared to limb lengths lends the game a very different feel, one that's a lot more about hyperactive movement and constant vying for position. Situations don't last anywhere near as long as in '98, let alone SF. So I think combos are largely blameless - it's the movement, folks.

...and some grognards complaining that you should AA with specials instead of buttons now and how that's totally not KOF, but I guess it is inevitable :D

02 (vanilla) is imo one of the worst KOF's.


If I was summing up a guess to why the KOF XIII hate it would be the push of combos in a fighting game system that never pushed it as much before. If you look at '98, KOF is mostly footsies based.

I never got why people like '98 so much. It's fun to play, but as you said, it's mostly footsie-based, and that IMO makes it a boring game to watch oftentimes. People should be welcoming a KOF that's more exciting to watch, which in return makes it fun to play... unless you suck at it. :P

This is why I can only sum up the reason for KOF XIII hate as nostalgia.

A game can be an absolute riot to play and still be complete ass to watch. As a fresh example, Killer Instinct. It's just about the most unwatchable fighting game ever made, yet apparently really fun to play. SFxT suffers a bit of the same fate. So people liking KOF because playing it makes them happy is a very understandable reason to like it a ton.

Or, say, my main game MTG. Utterly, utterly unwatchable for most people, yet the game is an absolute blast to play and interesting to read about. Meanwhile I find SF4 increasingly insufferable to actually play, but it's still very fun to watch and analyze. As long as I don't have to actually play Forklift Fighter 4.

Fun factor != watchability.

That said, I still don't understand the KOF13 hate :P

13 is so good that the new game is very likely to be worse.

It would be pretty hard to make a KOF game as shitty as 13 is.

Then again there are so many shitty KOF games... it wouldn't be hard at all.

I'm praying we get a fighting game from SNK that isn't KOF.

Can you elaborate, perhaps? Because KOF13 seems pretty amazing to me.

This is probably gonna be XIII's last Evo. I'm sure there will be an announcement of a new KOF later this year.

It's disappointing to see an Evo with no 3D fighting games though.

Yeah, though as snkp seems to be hiring 3d people it's not quite safe to say if we get MI3 or Kof14 if they indeed do get a new game out. I hope for 14 though i know that there are people who want MI3.

And yeah.. I really like vf5fs and ttt2 is good aswell. They are some of my favorite games to watch on stream, kind of a booking failure in my opinion.

3d games are a bit hard to watch if you're not familiar with them, tbh. A lot of it runs on data and not just how things look. That said, I'd much rather watch Tekken/VF5 than KI. That game is utterly unwatchable.

As far as new KOF goes, I hope later than sooner. I want KOF13 SE to grow first. Besides which, 13 is so good that the new game is very likely to be worse.

Can anyone quantify what the Mexicans are doing with the neutral game? Because whenever I watch them play KOF I feel there's something different to their movement that I don't see basically anywhere else, but can't really put a finger on what, exactly. I just know it gives me chills.


I understand all that, but honestly, the DLC trio are more or less the Doom/Vergil of KOFXIII. Of course plenty of other teams can, and do work, but having at least one or more will instantly make a team better, have incredible damage, easier execution and far less weaknesses overall. KOF isn't exempt from the benefits of tier-whoring, balanced though it may be.  After using them, picking a team without at least one of them feels underwhelming. And I absolutely hate that. Pick one or two, and fill the rest of the team with Beni/Hwa/Kim/regular version of DLC character and ta-dah!

If a character is comfortable in any team slot, it logically follows a team filled with those characters is more solid than a team that relies more on team order. It's about going into a match with every advantage you feel comfortable using.

And honestly, there's more than one person who refutes the battery/utility/anchor system. Pick three top-tiers and it doesn't matter who has meter or who doesn't. Why pick someone like say, K' when I can pick Hwa Jai and wreck people for 700 damage with almost no effort or execution?

My standards are probably too high. I've played fighters too much to try building teams around favourites anymore.


I started out with Andy/Mai/XX, just because I was only playing for fun when I started.  They can both run 1st or 2nd, and Mai really loves the meter as anchor. But running them together caused problems, because they're both very dependant on drive meter, not so much EX meter. Andy in 1st would end up hogging a lot of the drive meter that Mai would have wanted for Ryu Enbu loops. So I split them up.

Right now I'm trying Andy/Billy/Kyo and Kensou/Mai/Yuri.

First, Doom/Vergil? No. There's several things wrong with that analogy.
First, this isn't Marvel. In Marvel you pretty much need Morridoom or Zero to win. That game's tiers are way less compressed, the gap between the top tier teams and the rest is much higher, and team synergy is stupidly much more important than in KOF.
Second, grouping the DLC trio together. EX Iori and Karate can reasonably be considered the best two characters in the game, but EX Kyo is a notch below that. Benimaru and Kim, at least, are both better characters than EX Kyo. So there's having to have a DLC character to have a top tier team refuted.

And yes, it's true that a team with 2-3 universal top tier characters is has an advantage over a team that has as much raw power but needs a strict order because they can game matcups a bit. But that advantage just isn't very large if the strict-order team is built properly. There's no appropriate-slot matchup in the game that'd be worse than 6-4, and it's doubtful even a free-order team can finagle themselves more than one point of matchup advantage somewhere, if even that.

Also, with a mono-top tier team, meter use still matters. A lot. You're going with no meter against an anchor with tons of meter, you're at a disadvantage. It may be a slightly smaller one, but you're the underdog full stop because you're the one that will die to a touch.

So not going to contest that a team of universal top tiers is a better idea than some other team, but you're blowing the issue out of all proportion. There's way more things that have an effect - team construction on the not-mono-top tier side and the players' affinity with the characters themselves (very relevant in a game as fast-paced as this) being the biggest ones. What's best in a vacuum may not be the best for you. In SF4, I could play Cammy. I mean, everything ever says I should. She's super easy, super strong, and I could often just autopilot a bunch of wins. Just one problem: She just feels wrong, so playing Cammy is actually negative EV for me.
Consequence: I don't play her and play all manner of shotos instead, plus a bit of Dhalsim because those feel correct to me in that game. KOF is more balanced than that game. Just play what feels good instead of dragging yourself down mentally.

Now, to be on topic, my team has fluctuated a crapton. Started KOF with the Steam Edition beta with something like K', Benimaru, Flame Iori. I tend to be a fan of toolbox types and as such end up tier whoring a lot because rock solid toolbox characters usually end up there. Tried a lot of stuff out, King, didn't fit, whole Team DLC, better, and so on. Didn't try Kim, because I typically like winning with lots of tools, not bs properties on moves.

All the while most of my practice time was sucked up grinding Iori's BnB, which I just didn't seem to get the timing down for for some reason. Not consistently, at any rate. Be able to do it in practice one day, not the next type of thing. Watching Cafeid stream, Kim's buttons looked nicer and nicer. Ah, well, I'll try this stuff out. Wait, damn, these buttons do feel nice, and that's without the bs properties accounted for. I can do the BnB. He's a space control monster...

Long story short, Iori got fired. Can't continue with a rekka-sized hole in my game. Will pick him up again later, but not for now. Now is the time to play Karate/Beni/Kim.

I haven't figured out a team. I haven't been playing for two years, either.

Have quickly come to a realisation that an EX character or Karate is almost compulsory for a good team. But I don't like using any of them.

They're far from necessary. Consider what's needed for a team to be good:

1. Able to do good without a lot of meter. Good meterless damage output, strong neutral game tools are things to look for. Ability to build meter.

2. Able to utilize meter for extra tools or able to do lots of damage with small amounts of meter. Ability to build meter for the third character to use. The 2nd slot is the most freeform one, and almost any character can do well in it.

3. The key here is ability to convert all the amassed meter into tons and then tons of damage. Oppressive neutral game tools to do reverse one-character wins can be a consideration.

The important thing in building a team is that you have all the tasks covered. No one character needs to do everything, though it's useful.

The DLC trio are great and have the advantage of being at home in any slot (though EX Kyo probably isn't the best choice for anchor) because they're so good all around. They have a solid neutral game and scale well to any amount of available meter. But the DLC trio aren't the only universal top tiers. Benimaru, Kim and Hwa Jai fit the template to a T as well.

In addition to that, though, there are characters that strongly prefer certain slots due to their ability to use meter, or their need of meter to do things. Duo Lon and King, for example, completely suck as anchors due to their poor ability to convert meter into insane damage. But used as a first or second character where that ability isn't relevant or is less relevant, they're a match for any top tier. They have good meterless damage, nice buttons, good space control... anything one of those universal top tiers have. And since the meter amounts are low, their weakness doesn't really ever become an issue.

Likewise, there's characters like Claw Iori and Vice that can do ridiculous amounts of damage with meter. They also have OK neutral games, but need meter to get access to the EX moves and supers that patch some holes their meterless neutral game has. As such, they tend to need meter to be truly scary, which means putting either one on point is a bit questionable. But as an anchor, with a lot of meter available, they're only the tiniest bit behind the top tier, if they're behind at all. They also tend to do OK in the middle slot because they have some meter available.

So, you can build teams like EX Iori, EX Kyo, Karate or EX Iori, Karate, Kim. Sure. Rock solid, neither team really cares about character order so you can game matchups all you want.

But something like, say, Duo Lon, Kyo, Claw Iori is just as solid as that team. It just cares about it's order a little more. And even then, while all three prefer the slots I assigned them, Kyo is OK 1st or 3rd, and neither Duo Lon nor Iori terribly mind being 2nd, so you can still switch around a bit.

Or you could run Duo Lon, King, Vice. Again, rock solid, but a step more rigid because Vice really can't leave the third slot. You still have absolutely solid characters in every slot and can switch Duo Lon and King around.

Or see Juice's team: King, Takuma, Leona. Again, a bit order constrained to be sure, but against the field in general you can't really find fault in it. Leona's a good anchor, King is absolutely stellar on point, and Takuma can do monstrous things with only a little bit of meter.

There's a lot of really solid teams you can build if you put your mind to it.

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