Messages

106

General Discussion / Re: Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

« on: January 12, 2012, 07:17:18 AM »

Any early guesses on Mr karate? He seems like he can really maul once he gets in

crossup after reset can be quite brutal, but once you're used to the matchup his low reach (aside from far C->f+B) is really a downside. He seems like he's particularly strong vs. low level players who get caught off guard by his resets and his unblockable. Personally I think Takuma is stronger overall since he has the command grab, and somewhat better damage with meter and higher damage HD combos (for now).

Don't get me wrong, Karate is a goddamn beast for damage and has just as many options as Takuma, but he loses lots of his tricks against people who know his gameplan whereas Takuma is a bit more unpredictable. But who knows, he's only been out for a couple days, he certainly has room to grow and gain new mixup potential. The fact that he doesn't have as high damage and lacks a command grab over Takuma is kinda painful at the moment but he's still crazy good. In terms of defense Karate beats Takuma hands-down. Invuln shoryu, EX counter for a full combo, or early Brake shoryu for some severe anti air damage are all crazy tools.

Of course I haven't really played AS Karate much, just done his trials, but I've been playing against my friend's dedicated Karate main all day. I don't know all that much about the character aside from what I've been taught over the course of today.

107

Ex Kyo / Re: EX Kyo (NESTS)

« on: January 11, 2012, 08:20:32 AM »

Also being very self-sufficient helps him as a second character. He's not a meter hog, so my anchor will have lots to work with, most likely. He builds meter as fast as he burns it.

108

Ex Kyo / Re: EX Kyo (NESTS)

« on: January 11, 2012, 07:53:30 AM »

Yeah I agree there, and I'm still experimenting with EX Kyo, trying to find some more suitable combos for a 2nd character. For example, the best damage I've been able to find so far for a reasonable cost is 444+hard knockdown for 1 stock and 1 drive anywhere between mid-stage and the corner. j.D, c.C, f+B, qcf+AC, qcf+A, hcb+A, A [DC] qcf+D,D, qcf+A (1 hit), qcf+A, hcb+A, A. Gives you really good advantage with the hard knockdown.

109

Ex Kyo / Re: EX Kyo (NESTS)

« on: January 11, 2012, 07:31:05 AM »

Messed around with this character a little bit. Great damage potential. I would agree with the sentiment of putting him first. Typically, it seems more important to preserve stock as opposed to Drive, and Drive generally doesn't grant extra options, just more damage. As such, when building your team, it is better to put characters who don't make use of a lot of stock in front while putting characters who gain options or new combo pathways with stock in the rear. EX Kyo really only uses stock to increase his damage, while he makes great use of Drive cancels to extend combos and build extra stock (another good reason to put characters who utilize Drive cancels well in front, they build way more meter). His no stock combos deal very respectable damage, especially once Drive comes into play.

His HD combos with stock do murderous damage, but I don't like anchors who are overly reliant on HD as their selling point. It just feels like you are limiting yourself because you will be hunting for the HD starter, which may make you more predictable.

Yeah, I strongly agree with all of your points, and right now I'm really torn. I really love having Andy on point, but I'm also really loving EX Kyo. I feel like both of them are a little bit put to waste on 2nd or 3rd since their major selling points are high meterless damage and a great ability to control the momentum of the match without using any drive or meter to corner people or get knockdowns.

110

Ex Kyo / Re: EX Kyo (NESTS)

« on: January 10, 2012, 10:51:46 PM »

If you're going to put EX Kyo on as anchor you'll most likely be blowing all of your meter during HD combos. His EXDM-> NeoMax is absurdly high damage for no work at all. d/f+D (2 hits to confirm), qcb,hcf+ABC (HD bypass EXDM), NeoMax is around 900 damage... I'll be able to tell you the exact number once he's released later today and I have time to mess around with him in training mode. Mostly he seems like a strong first and a decent second... and if you want him on 3rd you're basically putting all of your eggs in the HD Combo basket. That's a fine thing to do, but just saying... he doesn't get a whole lot of new tools from meter aside from high damage HD combos and a sweet gap closer with EX RED Kick. One nice thing about having him as anchor is that he can build meter well, so if you have to go through two of your opponent's characters he won't run out of steam like many other anchors.

111

Billy Kane / Re: Billy Kane

« on: January 07, 2012, 04:44:13 AM »

I looked at that DG vid, and though it shows some good combos, he's still not top just because he can combo from one end to the other side... A few other characters can do that, but they're not "top" (maybe one character, he's got more going for him)...

Plus, I'm not sure why he isn't making the character attack while jumping to see which character's jumping attacks will beat out his d. C and vice versa...

I haven't seen any jump-in normals beat Billy's cr.C yet. It seems like an extremely high priority anti air... surely some characters can beat it or trade, but most cannot, I can say that much.

112

Andy Bogard / Re: Andy Bogard (Console)

« on: January 07, 2012, 04:30:23 AM »

Hiltzy asked in the arcade Andy thread which was locked if Andy's target combo,  B,D could be cancelled without cr.B. Yes it can. Into any special you want. It's marvelous.

113

Andy Bogard / Re: Andy Bogard (Console)

« on: January 06, 2012, 08:14:59 PM »

I've been messing around with Andy's far C. it's a really strong poke, but what most don't know is that you can start a full combo without activating HD mode with it. Far  ,   ,   [brake] works anywhere. It's just about impossible to confirm unless you're punishing something, but   is very difficult to punish, so vs most of the cast it's entirely safe to do on block.

114

Andy Bogard / Re: The Human Weapon of the Shiranui: Andy Matchup Thread

« on: January 06, 2012, 07:06:59 PM »

Yes I actually wrote that in my initial post about using it for guard crush. It also gives people LOTS of meter on block, making it riskier. Thing is though, Andy should almost always be on point, and he builds meter very quickly, so for Andy to face an opponent with 0 stock is not uncommon. This makes it viable but not a common strategy.

115

Andy Bogard / Re: The Human Weapon of the Shiranui: Andy Matchup Thread

« on: January 06, 2012, 01:41:04 AM »

I believe those numbers. I was just using my own eye to judge using training mode. Seemed like less negative frames than that, but certainly quite negative. Still too far to be punished by most characters, though I prefer not to use zan-ei ken outside of combos all the same. A and C seem to be identical recovery... but 2 frames is fairly insignificant. The startup is actually very significantly different.

Is there info on the EX Kuuhadan? I didn't see any frame data for it. I may be looking in the wrong place. It seems like +0 to me.

116

Andy Bogard / Re: The Human Weapon of the Shiranui: Andy Matchup Thread

« on: January 05, 2012, 11:56:10 PM »

You do not gain any meter on hit or on block from landing EX moves.

The blockstring j.CD, c.C (2 hits), f+A, hcf+BD, cr.B, s.B, s.D, qcb+A does a bit over 90% of the guard gauge. It's pretty solid for guard crush, but it builds so much super for the opponent that you'll get C+D countered very easily. Seems to me that there's not really much of a gap between hcf+BD and cr.B, but opponents could get out of they have a 1-frame grab like Kensou or Clark, etc. Still a very solid guard crush string. It works midscreen or in the corner.

The hcf+BD itself cuts off about 40% of the guard gauge and is completely safe. Seems to be +0 on block.

If you do use it for a guard crush and it crushes before the last hit of the move, the opponent becomes launched. You could turn this into a big combo with dp+A [DC] hcf+B [Brake]. This only works in the corner. Feel free to use it against grapplers, just be aware that if you try anything besides jump or C shoryu you'll be vulnerable to grabs.

As for Zan-ei Ken, the recovery of the A and C versions are virtually identical, -4~6 it looks like, but the startup of the A version is significantly faster. On block you cannot be punished by most characters, but by some. Shen comes to mind with EXDM, or Iori's EXDM. Basically it's too far to be punished by normals or grabs so opponents need a far reaching move that comes out in under 4 frames. EX Zan-ei Ken seems like it's -1 on block, cannot be punished by anybody as far as I know.

117

Andy Bogard / Re: The Human Weapon of the Shiranui: Andy Matchup Thread

« on: January 05, 2012, 06:21:49 AM »

I would agree on all of those points, but the real characters that you need to fear when you do his Brake on block are characters with 1 frame grabs. You're punishable with some fast normals (which is still difficult) but very very easy to punish via normal throw or worse yet command grabs that are instant, such as Shen's EX grab, which can lead to you losing 550 health.

I didn't think that C shoryu was invulnerable in the startup. Is it really? I thought that just the EX version was. If it is, then that's awesome. The EX version still gets way more frames and moves forward much farther though.

hcf+BD is quite safe though, I'm pretty sure. It takes off a huge amount of guard gauge, so it's quite good for guard crush, and you can combo after it in the corner quite well (dp+A, DC, hcf+B [brake], whatever) if it hits for some reason. Note that it is not invulnerable since the console update, but it still works as a counter to most normals since it comes out very quickly and places Andy very low to the ground. In my experience it can beat most non-low normals, and if it's blocked it'll be safe, if low blocked it can cross up mid-attack. Very punishable by A+B guard cancel, so be wary of opponent's block. But yes, quite abusable in the right situations. Low risk and extremely high reward. It's not a crazy useful tool, but it is handy if used sparingly.

118

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 03, 2012, 07:31:51 PM »

^^ This in a PS2 KOF2k2UM Tougeki Edition Casuals in my place my friends pick K', Kasumi and King some Namelesses are there you would be disgusted at the mirror matches. I use K' since he was my favorite in 99 onwards but since his dominance in 2k2UM and Arcade XIII I have abandoned him.

K' is in a good spot right now in XIII though, I would not call anyone using him a tier whore. If someone had both normal Kyo and EX Iori, that would be the closest thing to tier whoring in XIII right now... but even then I don't think I would feel cheated if they beat me with those characters.

119

Classic King of Fighters / Great KOF XII combo video

« on: January 03, 2012, 08:35:58 AM »

Or GREATEST KOF XII combo video?

I don't know if this is a troll video or what, but it has under 40 views so I doubt it's trolling.

120

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 01, 2012, 06:11:55 PM »

As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters.

Air D->stand C is a really easy link on Shen, doesn't need to be that deep at all.

I think it's too early to speculate on tiers but I think Robert is going to be up there when all the dust settles.  Command grab, non-directional command crossup, can jump off walls, two speeds of fireballs, dp, dive kick, gen'eikyaku and hien shippuukyaku, two command normals that link into each other and decent normals in general.  He might not have the best dp or the best fireball, but the sheer multitude of options he has available is pretty crazy.  He's easily the most well rounded character in the game.  I recommend him to everyone who's new because he's so good and versatile.

I also think King is pretty high tier.

I can agree that Robert is fairly underappreciated right now. His tools are really varied, he just lacks damage. If people figured out some great new ways to deal damage with him... he could easily rise to the top. I don't think that'll happen really, but I still think there's no way that a character with so many options can be bad.

And as for Shen in the arcade, I would put him probably in the top 10, but not the top 5. He's gotten fairly hard nerfs from the arcade version, and most of the rest of the cast got substantial buffs. Now I would put him in the top 15, but not the top 10.