Messages

121

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 01, 2012, 07:28:08 AM »

Did I say he was better than Kyo? No. You were complaining about lack of unsafe spammable moves and I showed you its not necessary.

Bad defense is the point of Shen, ever since he was introduced in 2003. You're either attacking or finished. If you want invincible DPs and fireballs then you are playing the wrong character. Just switch.

EDIT: And what is this about bad jump in hit stun? I'm not very good at comboing from jumpins in this game yet but I just took him to practice and was able to combo jC into sC and jA into sC like 7 times in a row.

My issue is that he's not really on the same level as Kyo at all, yet many tier lists have him close.

As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters. And yes, I'm saying that because Shen has poor defensive tools, he's not high tier. I'm certain that he'll end up being considered middle by most people eventually. Right now most of the tier lists I've seen have him at like... A Tier, or within top 5~10 characters. I'm not saying he's bad, just that he's average. He has strengths and weaknesses. But also when he lost a fairly large portion of his offensive capabilities in the console nerfs it hurt him quite a bit. Many of the characters got substantial buffs. He's really easy and fun to play, so he's popular, and people are doing well right now, but once the matchup is well known, he'll certainly drop. He also suffers greatly from some poor matchups vs characters with strong normals to beat his own, and grapplers.

122

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 01, 2012, 06:38:28 AM »

Aaaaaaand the only thing that Shen has over Kyo is higher damage off his command grab. Kyo wins in every other aspect by a mile. Like I said, -one- good tool does not make a high tier character. Kyo has an invulnerable shoryu, a fireball for safe lockdown, way stronger jump-ins, a better overhead, way better options from a low, just as much damage during HD mode and builds meter way faster. He also has a command grab if he needs it, he just doesn't get as much from it.

The biggest thing of all is that he has all of these options (save for the grab) when he's got no meter. Put Shen into a match with no meter and his damage is suddenly negligible, his defensive options are 0 and he doesn't build meter particularly quickly. Yes, I know he's an anchor, but what if he has to take out more than one character?

And not every character got hit the same amount in terms of the nerfs to hitstun from jump-ins. Shen has probably some of the very worst hitstun from his jump-ins. It makes hyperhops very risky compared to many other characters. Only j.CD has solid blockstun now.

Though I admit I have forgotten one of Shen's best tools. When he has 2 stock, nobody ever dares to jump in on him or do anything that telegraphs even a little bit, because his EXDM is 2 frames and causes wallbounce. This is a devastating tool, but again, requires lots of meter.

Shen is solid with meter, yes, but he's not always going to have meter. The top 10 characters will end up being ones that are strong with meter, but are also strong without it.

I would have to say that I mostly agree with Ky0's tier list, aside from the shockingly low placement of Goro and Chin. I also would think that Mature is around low-mid... not quite the worst pick in the game. Though I can understand rating her low. Chin and Goro, though?

123

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 01, 2012, 04:03:45 AM »

He had frame advantage on his overhead in the arcade. Now he eats a full combo. Also that combo into grab gives him no new tools at all. It's not about damage, it's about tools, and that's what he lacks. Yes he gets high damage from random hits, but he has a VERY hard time actually landing those hits compared to characters with safe rushdown and good pressure tools or strong mixups. Iori gets nearly the same damage that Shen does, but he also gets safe lockdown, a safe overhead that leads to 1k+ damage, way better hitstun on jump-ins, he builds meter more quickly and he has very solid combos from low without using full HD (though he could use HD if he wants to deal 1k damage from a low like Shen). Iori also has a 2 frame EX grab that's invulnerable on the first frame which gives him nearly as damaging a combo as Shen gets. Iori also can get resets off of his qcb+C or his command grab. I just don't think that trading off options for damage is a good idea. We'll see in a year who stays at the top and who gets dropped down once people learn matchups.

124

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 01, 2012, 03:47:48 AM »

As for Shen, he will always be considered strong. His damage output is just that good, and the main difference between arcade and console is the loss of the guard break on the charge punch. That's about it, not like anyone spammed those overheads with him before. If you look at the arcade version matches you will see that his overall game plan is still valid in the console version. Heck he even got a great buff in the form of the cancellable command grab (which lets him do a really easy and really short 100% combo in the corner using HD and 4 bars).

The fact is that he lost a safe overhead launcher, and he needs it in the console version more than ever now that hitstun on his jump-ins has been drastically reduced. He got nerfed harder than almost anyone with the console changes. His dash-punch cancel is a little faster, but it doesn't give him much. It does help his running EX grab setups a bit, though. He can be grabbed after dash-punch, making him terrible at locking down anyone who has a decent command grab. His grab got slowed down so that he can't even use it on wakeup anymore, meaning he has no defensive options without using meter. The cancellable grab is not really a significant buff at all since you have to be in HD mode before doing it to really combo after it effectively, plus it has a huge startup if you don't use the EX version, which you could combo off of already in the arcade. The cancellable grab is really only meant for a meterless grab->DM option. Using it in HD mode is a bit of a waste since he can already get over 1k damage for 3 meter, but lots of characters can do this. In KOF XIII having big damage is really not all that special, everyone has it. The top tier characters in this game should be characters with lots of solid tools, not just one.

I'm not saying that Shen is bad, but he's not as good as people seem to think right now. I just don't think he has much room to improve from where he is currently, and he has nowhere to go but down. He's one of the simplest characters in the game in terms of what you have to know in order to play him, so people think he's really strong right now. But that's a really bad thing in the long run. I'm just thinking that he'll be mid or high-mid at best eventually, since his only really strong tool now is his EX grab and c.Bx3->HD combo.

125

Andy Bogard / Re: Andy Bogard (Console)

« on: January 01, 2012, 03:30:59 AM »

It is ok to do Zan'eiken as a half-circle forward? It seems more natural to me, just wondering if doing the input like that would mess up any more advanced combos he has.

You wouldn't be able to DC into a fireball, instead you'll end up with a super.

This is true, but I also use hcf instead of the proper input for the elbow, and I've never really felt the need to use the fireball DC. Has it ever come up? The hcf input just feels far more natural for me as well.

126

General Discussion / Re: Tier List

« on: January 01, 2012, 03:25:53 AM »

I am predicting that a year from now Shen will be considered lower than he's generally considered now, and Joe will be considered higher.

I think that right now everyone's impressed by Shen's high damage and high abare, but he really lacks tools to open people up since the console changes. His jump-ins have to be done extremely late (later than most of the cast) if he wants to combo off of them, making him extra susceptible to anti air. His c.B,c.C link is not terribly reliable as it's a very tight link with extremely close range requirements, and his only other decent low option involves having full HD gauge. His overhead is unsafe at all points now, even the EX version. He eats a full combo (often to death) if he attempts any sort of overhead and gets it wrong. So his low options and overhead options are lacking. His grab is solid, but it's not enough to make him high tier. His defensive options without meter? None. He's pretty much completely free to pressure against if he doesn't have at least the meter to guard cancel. I would like to say he's middle. He has pros and cons, and when your only pro is "lol damage", then that's not good enough, because the entire cast can deal crazy damage.

Joe is a fairly complex character with potential that's not been tapped, particularly in the corner combo department. Just wait a few more months and I'm betting that people will have figured him out a fair bit more. Right now I think people just compare him to Hwa, and he's not as strong as Hwa, but he's still got some tools that Hwa does not, like zoning.

That's my rant. Certainly lots of characters will be shifting around the tier lists over the next 6 months, but those are my predictions right now.

127

Andy Bogard / Re: Andy video thread

« on: December 30, 2011, 08:06:49 AM »

Also by the same guy:

http://youtu.be/Kgv3V_lFPQk

Badass combo. Using this as my B&B from now on.

128

Iori Yagami (Claw) / Re: Iori Yagami (Console)

« on: December 23, 2011, 05:00:08 PM »

I nail plenty of hops on reaction with the dp+A, it comes out extremely fast and it does have great priority. But I suppose I played lots of XII compared to most people, so I'm fairly used to its strange hitbox by now. I think it's a fairly decent anti air, but it does take getting used to.

His best anti air is easily the EX dp+AC, it's his only viable upper body invulnerable option. Without meter, Iori lacks anti air a little bit, but close C and close D will trade with most early jump-ins and beat most combo-able jump-ins.

129

Iori Yagami (Claw) / Re: Iori Yagami (Console)

« on: December 22, 2011, 06:03:14 PM »

dp+A is very fast... it's just picky about where the enemies have to be in order to hit. the EX dp+AC is upper body invulnerable, so you could use that if they're not trying to cross you up, and if they're high up enough you can get a combo from it. close C and close D are fine anti airs too, but yeah Iori has no trouble with just blocking. He has many tools to turn an enemy's pressure into a combo for him. I know crouch C LOOKS like a good anti air... but I'm pretty sure that most jump-ins will snuff it.

130

Andy Bogard / Re: The Human Weapon of the Shiranui: Andy Matchup Thread

« on: December 22, 2011, 05:55:40 PM »

I'm not personally a fan of most of his options with meter. His NeoMAX is really strong, but his other DMs are not very impressive in terms of damage compared to what he can get for free, and they bring him no new tools. His NeoMAX has no invulnerability but you can use it air-to-air and it comes out so fast that it generally can't be stopped unless the opponent's attack is already sticking out. It's a nice new option, but it doesn't warrant putting him on last.

Honestly I think the best use of meter for him is his EX Shoryu, since it's invulnerable and deals a ton of damage. His EX d/b,f+AC is also really strong in terms of damage and comes out extremely fast, plus it's safe. It's mainly just a punisher, as it's not invulnerable. His EX fireball can be really good too, since it's extremely fast and also eats up normal projectiles. He'll have all the meter he needs for that if he's on first. Really those are the only new options he gains from meter.

His HD combos are pretty solid in terms of damage, I'm pretty sure that for his HD combo and 2 super stocks he can get 750-ish damage in the corner looping d/b,f+A/C,hcf+B/D[Brake],d/b,f+A/C repeated until the gauge is nearly empty, and then NeoMAX, or more damage if you want to add a Max Cancel in there off his EXDM (I just play him first, so I'm not sure the exact numbers of damage).

131

Ex Iori (Flame) / Re: EX Iori (Flames)

« on: December 21, 2011, 03:44:41 PM »

Just downloaded him and....
His rekkas are really hard to use.
Other than that I like the character.

The rekkas are actually extremely easy to use, the difference is that you should be doing the input more slowly compared to previous games. Just put a nice long delay between each hit of the rekkas and you should have no trouble at all.

132

General Discussion / Re: Character Rise Speeds

« on: December 20, 2011, 05:07:45 PM »

is there same lists with reversal startups? and what about dlc chars? is this same for fallback(roll recovery)?

I imagine that the DLC characters will have the same jumping speeds as their non-EX counterparts. At least, it seems this way for Iori so far.

133

Shen Woo / Re: Shen vs. Grapplers

« on: December 18, 2011, 02:04:54 PM »

I guess my real problem here is that Shen has no reliable way to combo from anything outside of Goro and Clark's grab ranges, and his poke game is generally also weaker than either of theirs. I could do far stand D and cancel to HD mode but it's far too hard to confirm. Though at least if I'm in HD mode then I can make myself safer by HDCing my pressure strings into qcf+C,B/D.

134

Andy Bogard / Re: The Human Weapon of the Shiranui: Andy Matchup Thread

« on: December 18, 2011, 01:52:09 PM »

As for opening people up, I do have a few tricks with Andy;

Since this game has that anti-tick throw stuff, you have to kinda trick people in other ways to get your grabs. Andy's j.C looks like he'll hit someone on jump-in, but in my experience it pretty much whiffs every time if your opponent is not in the air, so you can jump in and do a j.C while you're coming in, and the opponent will often block it leading to a good throw situation for you. Andy's throw is particularly good because he has TONS of time to set up oki (I just use qcb+A and then go in for pressure).

Also his j.D is a very ambiguous crossup, especially if you use it as oki. The range at which it crosses up is very precise, and varies from character to character, but it's extremely hard to read.

His j.CD is extremely strong when used early as well, and if it hits on counter you can get a full combo from his d/b,f+C cancelled into hcf+B/D Brake into whatever.

His BEST anti air is probably actually his dp+AC since it's the only one with invulnerability, but his crouch D is also extremely good, and his stand D almost always snuffs hyperhops and crossup attempts.

To be honest I think Andy has no bad matchups at all. He has such a solid set of moves that he's really got no areas in which he's lacking severely. He's a jack-of-all-trades with better damage potential than Robert, which makes him probably one of the best batteries in the game.

135

Shen Woo / Re: Shen vs. Grapplers

« on: December 15, 2011, 07:21:16 PM »

actually at most ranges Shen's j.CD can be grabbed out of the air with Goro's EX anti air. The max range j.D and far standing D and sometimes crouch D seem to be the safest way to keep him out... but even max range j.D can be snuffed by Goro's d/f+C or standing D usually. It just seems like a really rough matchup with Shen to try and beat an opponent who has better normals and an invulnerable anti air or grab... I'm really trying to come up with some good ways to maybe bait a throw without actually exposing myself to get grabbed.