Topic: Mature (Console)

[Chrome Homura]

Yo, sorta new to Mature here... the team I want her to work with puts her mid or anchor (never point)

I can do the EX/D Massacre xx cl.C link fine, but for the life of me I've all but given up on ever being able to cancel B massacre into A despair with any degree of consistency. I've studied her HD combo routes extensively lately in the hopes of finding some sort of tech in order to optimize my damage output so that my Mature can work without this particular detail, but... all I've really learned is that rekka scaling ruins the damage values for everything you can possibly do afterwards aside from Rites and Neomax, and linking EX Massacres at the start basically makes for the same total combo damage as anything else I can do. That said, I'm still looking.


...Of course, that was until a few minutes ago. In my most recent training mode grind, I actually seem to have stumbled upon the proper timing to do B massacre xx A despair via the half circle back xx forward shortcut. However, I can't seem to make it work within the HD combo yet, as for some reason when I try to do it after rekkas xx D massacre, either the despair fails to come out... or I get another rekka. Experimentation has proven that this is also possible outside of HD mode, but it occurs much less often when I'm attempting to do the cancel off a raw massacre. Can anyone explain this?


Also, the combo vid in the post just prior to this one contains another weird thing I don't get... in the combo at 2:17, the player cancels a rekka (during first hit) into D massacre and it somehow works. I was under the impression D massacre would only combo after rekkas (if the last hit is the one that puts them into the air) or the 4th hit of EX rekka (while the opponent is still grounded.) If so, how does that combo work? What is it about that sequence that allows D massacre to actually hit at that point?

[FM Sway]

Yo, sorta new to Mature here... the team I want her to work with puts her mid or anchor (never point)

I can do the EX/D Massacre xx cl.C link fine, but for the life of me I've all but given up on ever being able to cancel B massacre into A despair with any degree of consistency. I've studied her HD combo routes extensively lately in the hopes of finding some sort of tech in order to optimize my damage output so that my Mature can work without this particular detail, but... all I've really learned is that rekka scaling ruins the damage values for everything you can possibly do afterwards aside from Rites and Neomax, and linking EX Massacres at the start basically makes for the same total combo damage as anything else I can do. That said, I'm still looking.


...Of course, that was until a few minutes ago. In my most recent training mode grind, I actually seem to have stumbled upon the proper timing to do B massacre xx A despair via the half circle back xx forward shortcut. However, I can't seem to make it work within the HD combo yet, as for some reason when I try to do it after rekkas xx D massacre, either the despair fails to come out... or I get another rekka. Experimentation has proven that this is also possible outside of HD mode, but it occurs much less often when I'm attempting to do the cancel off a raw massacre. Can anyone explain this?


Also, the combo vid in the post just prior to this one contains another weird thing I don't get... in the combo at 2:17, the player cancels a rekka (during first hit) into D massacre and it somehow works. I was under the impression D massacre would only combo after rekkas (if the last hit is the one that puts them into the air) or the 4th hit of EX rekka (while the opponent is still grounded.) If so, how does that combo work? What is it about that sequence that allows D massacre to actually hit at that point?

B Massacre into A Despair takes a lot of patience to be able to time properly. In some situations, you can do B Massacre very early and hold the button, so that the move will come out in the first frame it is allowed to. And while holding that button, you can do the motion for the A Despair.

But a lot of situations require you to time the B Massacre the minute the opponent falls, and that's really when you have no choice but to practice the sequence and improve your timing.

For the combo you asked about in that video: notice how the opponent is still in an air-juggled state. The combo starts off a counter-hit situation in the air, and the opponent does not fall to the ground.

[Chrome Homura]

*stuff*

Thanks, actually I went back to grinding Mature and somehow managed to discover the timing to perform the inputs raw, as it began to produce consistent results a lot faster than trying to understand the shortcut method. Along the way I also discovered the hilarious shortcut for B Massacre xx Ebony Tears. It's kinda ridiculous to my mind that you can input the Massacre with  , hold  / and the projectile automatically comes out with no further directional input. I was disappointed to discover that it wasn't a full HD loop by itself (they fall just a little further each time, such that a 3rd tears will leave you unable to continue the combo) but it was easy as hell, very entertaining to watch, and it did help me gain a better understanding of where the cancel window was, which led to my becoming uber-consistent at landing the Massacre xx despair cancel, and the loop as a whole shortly thereafter.

For the combo you asked about in that video: notice how the opponent is still in an air-juggled state. The combo starts off a counter-hit situation in the air, and the opponent does not fall to the ground.

Afraid I still don't think I get it. How does the opponent being in the air when the combo starts allow D massacre to connect? Again, my current impression of D massacre is that the move is only capable of connecting with the opponent at all on 2 occasions: While the opponent is grounded (can combo from 4th EX Rekka) or during that particular instant after the last hit of a rekka (reg. or EX) that started from the ground puts the opponent into the air. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with "Juggle state" and similar terminology, as KOF's air combos actually don't really make that much sense to me. I actually kind of hold a certain distaste for the word "juggle", as I feel it has kind of a primitive taste to it (I'm more comfortable with Guilty Gear's "Hitbox looks right=It'll hit if they can't/don't tech" way of handling things.) I just sort of view a character's moves as being able to hit at certain points, and the rule of thumb for me is that if they were too close to the ground the thing you're trying to do will whiff because it didn't come out fast enough to catch them from the height they were at, and that's why some things work and some don't. I guess having said that it'll probably be a little more difficult to explain to someone like me 

[FM Sway]

Afraid I still don't think I get it. How does the opponent being in the air when the combo starts allow D massacre to connect? Again, my current impression of D massacre is that the move is only capable of connecting with the opponent at all on 2 occasions: While the opponent is grounded (can combo from 4th EX Rekka) or during that particular instant after the last hit of a rekka (reg. or EX) that started from the ground puts the opponent into the air. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with "Juggle state" and similar terminology, as KOF's air combos actually don't really make that much sense to me. I actually kind of hold a certain distaste for the word "juggle", as I feel it has kind of a primitive taste to it (I'm more comfortable with Guilty Gear's "Hitbox looks right=It'll hit if they can't/don't tech" way of handling things.) I just sort of view a character's moves as being able to hit at certain points, and the rule of thumb for me is that if they were too close to the ground the thing you're trying to do will whiff because it didn't come out fast enough to catch them from the height they were at, and that's why some things work and some don't. I guess having said that it'll probably be a little more difficult to explain to someone like me 

Being in an air-juggle state just allows you more time to hit things, especially a 1st rekka hit to D Massacre. You said it youself, "When the opponent is grounded." Meaning if you performed the Rekka when she's on the ground, literally standing on it, your D Massacre drive cancel will not hit, simply because s/he has already recovered. Because she's already airborne when that 1st Rekka hits, you can drive cancel into D Massacre in time before s/he lands and it will hit.

Why do you think the very last hit of the 3rd Rekka into D Massacre hits on the ground? It's because the last hit puts the opponent airborne. Why wouldn't it work on, say, the 2nd to last hit of the 3rd Rekka? Because the opponent was not airborne.

[Chrome Homura]

^ Okay, been sorta on-off with this in my head, but I think I can finally phrase my query in a form we both understand...


What confuses me is that my idea of when D massacre will connect on an aerial opponent is based on one thing: The instances I previously mentioned (rekkas/EX rekkas, I.E her bnb combos) are both instances where the very first attack that connects once the opponent becomes airborne is the D massacre. In other words, I'm not understanding the correlation between what you've said about the combo starting with them already in the air and the fact that the player in the video seemingly managed to re-create the exact juggle state that occurs after the last hit of a grounded Rekka/EX Rekka chain... and not only accomplished this despite them already being airborne, but performed this cancel from a single hit of her first rekka and caused the D massacre to not only come out properly (she performed the attack instead of just running to nowhere) but the slash actually hit them. Given that this is mind-boggling to me, clearly I don't understand the exact properties of Mature's "juggles" very well, never mind the game system's method of determining how "juggles" work. (I can't use the word "juggle" without putting it in quotation marks, it just feels... dirty for some reason)


See, I do a metric ****ton of "homebrew" lab work when I commit to learning a character. In attempting to discover their possible combo routes, I spend many hours not grinding the stuff I already know works, but trying various things just to see what stuff "works" and what doesn't. Mature is one of my mains, so the amount of time I've spent on her in this way is considerable. However, aside from her bnb (D massacre just after rekkas) every point I've ever experimented with involving D massacre results in either Mature not even performing the actual attack after inputting the move (she just runs forward and does nothing, they fall to the ground) or she throws out the slash too late (and they fall to the ground) The same applies to EX massacre, but for some reason it'll hit at odd points such as if you DC into it off the second B massacre in her 1 drive bnb. This in itself violates the established principle I had previously thought to be the reason why D massacre never works anywhere else: I was under the impression that D massacre "works" after rekkas (and nowhere else) because the Massacre is the first move executed after the opponent becomes airborne. Clearly this idea is false, as if were true the combo in the vid (as well as my EX experiment) wouldn't work. However, the erasure of that understanding doesn't allow me to connect the dots and understand why that combo in the video "works".


I guess it's strange for there to be a player like me who goes all in on the trial/error method of determining what combos the characters I play are capable of without having a very firm grasp of how the game's system determines whether a move will "juggle" or not. That's why I found the combo in that video so confusing, because it revealed something to me that I had already determined to be impossible! This one combo practically spat in the face of my research. Obviously I'm not angry that it's there (far from it, it looks kind of useful and might serve as an aid in my attempts to further optimize my Mature HD damage) but it comes off as quite the surprise to me, given that it defies one of the basic rules I had established in attempting to build Mature combos from the ground up. As such, I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of why this particular setup works, in order to figure out how to replicate the result (connecting D massacre in combos at points other than after grounded rekkas) and use it in further combo experiments.


Edit: Just actually watched the rest of that vid... so not only does this player use it in other combos, but does it repeatedly, going so far as to connect multiple D massacres in one combo while the opponent is airborne. I'm just as insanely interested in learning how exactly this is possible as what moves/timing I need to figure out in order to do it myself. It looks like this makes her HD combos at the 1-2 bar mark worthwhile, instead of sub-par compared to most characters (my current 2-bar Mature HD variants only deal 650 damage from a low confirm, they should deal 700 like everyone else's) so clearly there's something here I need to figure out.

[Persona]

I don't really understand your question about her qcb D but her qcb D has a ton of startup time so you'll have to cancel the last hit of her third rekka as soon as possible to ensure it connects. If you do it too slow, she'll probably just run forward. There isn't any special property to her qcb B/D. It will always hit a juggled opponent. If you're whiffing the qcb D, it's probably because you're doing it too slow or it's impossible from the height the opponent is at.

For the position of her qcb D to hit, you kind of have to run under the opponent. As in it feels like the opponent is dropping onto your attack instead of you running directly in front of the opponent.

[Chrome Homura]

Hey folks, just cooked up my first 2 bar HD for 700 off a crouch confirm (cr. x 3, HD) I feel like it even does a noteworthy job of keeping a lid on the timing-intensive inputs to some degree, and it upgrades to a 3 bar with a solid extra 100 damage with no extra effort. That said, one cannot ignore that Mature is never anything short of an exceptionally demanding woman... so this is still pretty hard, not sure if I'll be able to start landing it against people. But without further ado:


Confirm xx (HD) cl. , EX Rekka x4 HDC  massacre, cl. Rekka x3 (all hits) HDC  massacre,  massacre,  massacre HDC  despair* Rekka (1 hit) HDC  massacre, Rekka (One input**) HDC  despair, Nocturnal Rites


*This input needs to be tight, late enough for the following rekka to work (the  massacre will always combo from this point) but as early as possible anyway. The key factor in determining whether or not the Rites' crucial last hit will connect is how much time passes after this despair hits, thus the variance in the ** section.


**If you cancel this rekka into despair on the first hit, the despair can hit kinda late and the super should work. If you cancel from the 3rd hit of the rekka, the despair has to hit early and the super might not work. As such, the 2nd hit of the Rekka is a fairly safe middle ground. With the above in mind it follows that the super input should always be buffered so Rites will come out as soon as Mature recovers from the despair, otherwise there might not be enough "juggle time" remaining for the last hit to connect. If you're not sure you can fit the rekka+despair, going into the super after the  massacre is a surefire confirm for 20 or so less damage.


What I like about this variant is that none of the timing restrictions come in multiples, and are separated enough to semi-comfortably confirm each one: There's only one cl. link (IMO the EX rekka one is easier, since the rekka inputs give you a bit of slack to feel out your timing before synchronizing with the 4th one) a 3rd rekka xx  massacre cancel, only one  massacre into despair (with the followup input also being the only tight one) and there's wiggle room with the ender to fall back on if you're not sure you hit the despair just right. Thus, it should be possible to keep your rhythm and land the various other parts once you're past the link. I haven't tested this against an actual opponent yet, but I'll report back with my results after my local weekly tomorrow.

[desmond_kof]

I recently got a good idea from AirLancer's recent Mature combo video using EX rekkas in her HD combos:

http://youtu.be/pg5cqKa07OM?t=35s

Now, I switched her far D with cl.C after activation (I had a little trouble getting far D, even though I knew it was more damage) and I altered the end a bit substituting her Nocturnal Rites (qcfx2+P) with Heaven's Gate (qcb~hcf+K), which got me 737 damage. When I tried it out a few times, I got 777 damage once, but I'm not sure why or how. This is the combo notated:

(start mid-screen) j.C, cl.C (HDC) cl.C, qcb+AC+x5, (HDC), qcb+D (wait), (qcb+P (1) (HDC), qcb+D) x4, qcb~hcf+K = 737 damage.

Without the j.C, you can get around 705 which you can use as a punish combo. Off a cr.B, st.B starter into HD, I got around 632 damage. It's not too tough, just gotta remember to drive cancel the last hit from the EX rekka into qcb+D quickly for they can stay juggled, then wait a bit and hit them with a delayed qcb+P for the qcb+D won't miss.

[AirLancer]

The way I get the far D is when I activate HD, I hold back so that Mature doesn't auto-dash forwards.

[desmond_kof]

The way I get the far D is when I activate HD, I hold back so that Mature doesn't auto-dash forwards.

Yeah, I knew that was the way which is similar to how you get the far D from EX Iori's HD combo (qcf+P, qcf~hcb+P, NeoMax) but I always fugg it up, so I decided to use something easier for me. LOL.

[AirLancer]

So are there any known 4 meter 100% combos with Mature (that aren't off a counter-hit j.CD or anti-air despair or something)?

Well, here's one...

More Mature Stuff

[Chrome Homura]

It just occurred to me that I didn't report back like I said last week... totally forgot it, my bad. I only got like 3 chances to go into the combo, one of those times I landed it flawlessly, the other two I botched the confirm (though one of those times I picked it up and completed the combo) I've been practicing it since and have gotten really consistent with hitting each part of the combo comfortably. I really like it, it feels like the go-to 2 bar combo that any serious Mature player should have ready in their toolbox.


Major props to Airlancer, good stuff man. Have you tried your combos off cr.B confirms? (btw guys, cl.B is the bane of good Mature combos... players looking to optimize their damage should usually stagger their cr.Bs in order to confirm into st.B) A low hit is your most likely confirm into HD outside of a punish situation (cl.c is gonna be the starter 99% of the time there, not j.c) so... yeah, I'm curious about the numbers look like there. Btw feel free to try out the setup in my above post, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the EX rekka x4 HDC qcb+D, cl.C variant.


On another note, has anyone here experimented with HD resets in match play? I.E confirm into HD, then intentionally do a crossup dp+A early in the combo? As one can imagine, the qcb+B dp+A loop does absurd damage without the scaling from rekkas, leading to a solid extra 700 meterless(!!!) damage for hardly any effort aside from timing the crossup dp+A right in order to be able to land the first qcb+B. I'm thinking I'm gonna try this tonight for kicks, we'll see how it goes...

[AirLancer]

Further refinements...

871 damage 3 meters HD

j.C cl.C HDC, s.D, qcb+AC x 5 DC qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B DC dp+A~A, qb+B DC dp+A~A, qcb+A DC qcb+D qcb+A x 3 qcbhcf+AC

2nd qcb+A of the last set of 3 qcb+As supposed to whiff.

889 damage 3 meters HD



j.C cl.C HDC s.D, qcb+AC x 4 DC qcb+D, cl.C, qcb+A x 3 DC qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B DC dp+A, qcb+A (3 hits) DC qcb+D, qcb+B qcbhcf+AC

Even more Mature Stuff

[Chrome Homura]

Not bad man, it's because I saw your videos back then that I was first inspired to upgrade my Mature combos.


Check this one out, it happens at 9:21 (can't remember how to timestamp the url...)

hella set


734 dmg off a low confirm for 2 bars, full corner carrry. Ironically though... it wasn't getting this combo down that made me feel like my Mature has become much scarier to deal with. Recently I've figured out how to actually level up my fundamentals, and in the process I've truly begun on the path to eliminating my old scrubby habits for good!