Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

[Saitsuofleaves]

Alright, I'm going to say this once, and I want you to really listen.  Execution requirements are not in any way, shape or form, relevant to the ability of a character unless the execution is so extreme, no human could perform it consistently.  As of now, there's only one character I know of that fits that bill, and that's MvC2 Dhalsim.

Not having big damage is not a problem, even in a game like XIII. 

As for his tier placement or if he's "that" good, I've already stated that I put absolutely no faith in any tier list, nor do I or will I ever create one of my own because it's IMO, a waste of time.  However, you seem to heavily underestimate him, from what it seems like because of your own personal experiences with him, which means either you're facing subpar Duos, or...and excuse my bluntness, you can't use him at all yourself.

[Kane317]

Alright, I'm going to say this once, and I want you to really listen.  Execution requirements are not in any way, shape or form, relevant to the ability of a character unless the execution is so extreme, no human could perform it consistently.

Someone needs to explain that to The Answer and Bala (a la Leona's placement on their tier list).

I can't see how duo lon is that good to begin with it, he under pressure is not very good and his offensive is nothing to write home about imo

Have you ever played a decent to very good Dou Lon? His offense and mix-ups can be a nightmare...

Like I said, he's offensive is nothing to write home about in the sense that had good offensive, but that other characters could do the job way better, and the cons damage the pros imo

He is a reliable character, but at least he shouldn't be that high on the tier list

As a Duo Lon user for over a year, especially compared to his v1.1 counterpart, IMHO, he's offense is not as good.

It's been discussed several times in the Duo Lon thread: yes, he does more damage overall but he did have better mixups in the arcade edition.  Damage means nothing if you cannot pull it off.  

[Saitsuofleaves]

Alright Kane, seriously you need to stop riding Oscar and Bala about that damn list.  Do they have to write some sort of deep, heart-felt apology?  Because apparently them saying for the last month or two that Leona was better than they thought is not good enough for you.  Apparently Bala winning tourneys with Leona now isn't enough for you.

It was one night, they were having fun with it, stop taking it so damn seriously.

[Kane317]

Alright Kane, seriously you need to stop

Actually, I don't have to do anything.  But just to entertain...

Because apparently them saying for the last month or two that Leona was better than they thought is not good enough for you.  Apparently Bala winning tourneys with Leona now isn't enough for you.

Nope, not considering the way they defended their list and attacked us inadvertently, and one of them in particular, reinforced his belief many times citing (and I'm paraphrasing) "that until someone beats him with Leona he's not going to change and since Bala was a champion, whatever he said is gold."  You must have missed it.

So no, it's not one night of fun because they took it seriously and consequently many that watched their stream took it pretty seriously as well.  The very next day I had to correct a commentator on public stream because they were just as amused as the list as we were, and I had to point out it was the opinion of the individuals, not SoCal's as a whole (that's why we took it personally).

[Diavle]

Watching the Japanese Game Spot Versus stream for Climax and:

- their character picks aren't all that different from NA, the tech as well.
- like the Koreans, they seem to heavily favour EX Iori over regular so far.
- looks like Mr. Karate may become their next arcade K'.
- Beni is also a regular pick, Shen too.

There's a Kensou player kicking a lot of butt, he's such a solid character.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Alright Kane, seriously you need to stop

Actually, I don't have to do anything.  But just to entertain...

Because apparently them saying for the last month or two that Leona was better than they thought is not good enough for you.  Apparently Bala winning tourneys with Leona now isn't enough for you.

Nope, not considering the way they defended their list and attacked us inadvertently, and one of them in particular, reinforced his belief many times citing (and I'm paraphrasing) "that until someone beats him with Leona he's not going to change and since Bala was a champion, whatever he said is gold."  You must have missed it.

So no, it's not one night of fun because they took it seriously and consequently many that watched their stream took it pretty seriously as well.  The very next day I had to correct a commentator on public stream because they were just as amused as the list as we were, and I had to point out it was the opinion of the individuals, not SoCal's as a whole (that's why we took it personally).

Yeah, and you know what used to happen when people got annoyed that characters are getting disrespected?  They pick up the character (if they haven't already) and they prove the character's worth to everyone.  Money matching, winning tourneys, whatever, prove it by doing what we do best (or at least what we used to).

And if other people want to take a tier list seriously, that's on them, if they want to be stupid about it.  Because those are the same people that have absolutely no understanding of the game to begin with.  Because if they had the understanding, they wouldn't need the tier list to begin with, or at the very least wouldn't be as annoyed by it.  But obviously you're proving that anyone can be annoyed by anything.

But seriously, enough talking and riding about it, pick up Leona if you haven't already, and prove her worth. 

[JennyCage]

Just kinda curious, and you're entitled to your opinion, as a Duo Lon user what's your reasoning for him being placed so high, relatively speaking of course.

Like others have pointed out, his offense and mixups are very much nightmarish when played by a high skill player.  The average Duo Lon is not that threatening, but when he's in the hands of a rockstar the character is insane.  He can mix you up for days off a dozen different string options.  The more varied and unpredictable the player, the more problematic the character becomes.  Combine that with decent normals and the ability to anti-air off rekkas, along with other dirty technology (like grounded crossups with rekkas on hard knockdowns) and you have a beast of a character.  Unfortunately he takes a LOT of skill and creativity to reach that level so I understand why some people might be skeptical if they haven't seen it themselves, but once they do they'll understand.  In my opinion, Duo Lon is every bit deserving of an A rating.

[Kane317]

But seriously, enough talking and riding about it, pick up Leona if you haven't already, and prove her worth.  

I think you're missing the point; I don't have to pick up Raiden v1.1 to know he's good.  I'm not a Leona player, at least not in the conventional sense (I've used her on and off for the last 12 versions), but I know when I character isn't rock bottom either.

Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I have now.

Like others have pointed out, his offense and mixups are very much nightmarish when played by a high skill player.  The average Duo Lon is not that threatening, but when he's in the hands of a rockstar the character is insane.  He can mix you up for days off a dozen different string options.  

I'm pulling a number out of my ass right now, but I think over half the cast can punish his rekka rekkas teleport mixup and I don't know if you're aware of that his Ex teleport is punishable as well.   He lost the bulk of his crossup setups due to system changes and the only thing he has left really is his crossup s.CD which can be countered by just paying attention slightly.  If you shut down his teleport gaming, and his crossup game is basically non existent, he's left with very little unpredictable options.

The more varied and unpredictable the player, the more problematic the character becomes.  Combine that with decent normals and the ability to anti-air off rekkas, along with other dirty technology (like grounded crossups with rekkas on hard knockdowns) and you have a beast of a character.  

The main problem with using his rekkas as AA, is the tendency for it to cross-under (all too often, maybe 40% of the time), causing you to unintentionally use a drive cancel and hence dropping the combos.  Speaking of cross-unders, those who use DL knows how annoying and often your BnB rekkas x2, qcf B, Ex DM combo becomes the Ex qcb P instead and there's very little you can do to control it at times (delaying, waiting, it's almost a guess at some distances).

Unfortunately he takes a LOT of skill and creativity to reach that level so I understand why some people might be skeptical if they haven't seen it themselves, but once they do they'll understand.  In my opinion, Duo Lon is every bit deserving of an A rating.

Don't get me wrong, he's not crap--I'll settle with a A / A-.

[sibarraz]

Alright, I'm going to say this once, and I want you to really listen.  Execution requirements are not in any way, shape or form, relevant to the ability of a character unless the execution is so extreme, no human could perform it consistently.  As of now, there's only one character I know of that fits that bill, and that's MvC2 Dhalsim.

Not having big damage is not a problem, even in a game like XIII. 

As for his tier placement or if he's "that" good, I've already stated that I put absolutely no faith in any tier list, nor do I or will I ever create one of my own because it's IMO, a waste of time.  However, you seem to heavily underestimate him, from what it seems like because of your own personal experiences with him, which means either you're facing subpar Duos, or...and excuse my bluntness, you can't use him at all yourself.

Big damage matters, why a character where his mix up game is a bit situational and with no that good damamge will be amazing when at least half the cast could to more damage without being that situational and with tools to compensate other areas?

[Saitsuofleaves]

Because in Duo's preferred position, Point, his damage at 1 Bar/1 Drive, aka the max most Point characters would be willing to actually burn short of killing someone with HD, is actually not that far off what MOST characters can do.  Short of an extreme case (Hwa Jai Drunk), he's 100 off the pace at worst.  The difference being his offensive potential never stops at the end of his combos, they continue to go into hit resets and tons of mixups whereas most characters get safe/crossup jump setups at best.

But I'll bring up a question for you, though I hate to do it since I know I'll get yelled at by everyone else but, WHY IS THIS A BIG DEAL TO YOU?  God forbid Jenny have her own opinion on character placements. 

[desmond_kof]

But I'll bring up a question for you, though I hate to do it since I know I'll get yelled at by everyone else but, WHY IS THIS A BIG DEAL TO YOU? 

Just remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and viewpoints, so let him have his, and lets leave it at that.

[Kane317]

elive.Pro|Frionel's tier list if it hasn't been posted already:

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tro92pky30aj5igj9rl15xmn5ri48ump7ihy61jk7ihz4dcd5jof6kav8toa4ngg5mp1869a3ijc2peg8z8h6mco8sas7kjt9pna9pji57ml4qef5i9b9gl67hgd82l155jm6agb4eky44mk31-bkf-naeLive%7Cfrionel

[Saitsuofleaves]

But I'll bring up a question for you, though I hate to do it since I know I'll get yelled at by everyone else but, WHY IS THIS A BIG DEAL TO YOU? 

Just remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and viewpoints, so let him have his, and lets leave it at that.

You're right, you're right, and this is kind of the reason why the first thread got derailed, since I was being a douche to those who actually want to do a tier list, so I should avoid posting here anymore lest it happens again.  I apologize to all.

[The Fluke]

elive.Pro|Frionel's tier list if it hasn't been posted already:

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tro92pky30aj5igj9rl15xmn5ri48ump7ihy61jk7ihz4dcd5jof6kav8toa4ngg5mp1869a3ijc2peg8z8h6mco8sas7kjt9pna9pji57ml4qef5i9b9gl67hgd82l155jm6agb4eky44mk31-bkf-naeLive%7Cfrionel

Looking at that list i wonder about a couple of points; How is Joe and Hwa equally well rounded? I see Joe as a more well rounded character, while Hwa may make up for it, i don't see them on equal terms in that department.

Yuri to me doesn't feel like a very well rounded character at all, her fireballs are relatively unsafe and she doesn't exactly have the best normals all around. Neither of her reversals are invincible so she has to go to the very weak EX slap grab to give herself a break. She may be very good, but she's definetly flawed imo.

I also don't see how K' is so flawed that he ends up on the other side of the line, it may not matter much, but doesn't he have just about everything you could need in this game outside of a command throw?

[Kaede The Seiryu]

Hello guys!

Since the patch, some of the bugged Ex Iori combos dont work anymore, like his infinite.
If I remember the thing correctly, in the pre-patch version, you can to do the Ex Iori infinite by canceling the second hit of Aoibana in Maiden Masher and do another Aoibana and repeat, but if you have half or more of the HD bar the Aoibana will cancel in Maiden Masher (super cancel).
In a pre-patch video you can see the infinite, but, in the previous combo ( at 1:22 ) Ex Iori do a 100% combo using [Ex Aoibana or normal Aoibana ] -> overhead. I have tried but, by this time, I can't do that combo.

Anybody knows how can I do that combo, if possible, in current version, or, if not possible,  how can I do that combo in the pre-patch version?

Thank you people o/

Video:
KoF XIII : Iori with the power of flames Combo Video


UPDATE: Now  I can do that combo (at 1:22) ->  The combo does not change anything in the current version.