Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

[davidkong07]

Hey guys,

I totally wasn't expecting so many comments about the list I posted up, sorry I haven't checked back in a long while!

So, first off please notice that I've adjusted my opinion from before and currently believe that even the bottom tier of this game is B+, meaning totally viable.

When I rank characters (or think about how good they are) these are the main factors I consider:

1.) Damage output for meter spent (1 drive cancel or HD)

2.) Normals (frame data and hitbox properties)

3.) Neutral game

4.) Mix Up ability

Billy is low tier imo because of his poor damage output and mix up ability. His two really good normals are fwd A and j. CD, but he simply lacks the other straightforward things which make top tier characters good in this game. His main strength is his neutral game, which still isn't as effective when compared to characters like King, Kyo, and Iori.

Robert moved up for me since I've found (with help from Airlancer and Warahk) his optimized combos in all screen positions. He actually does very good damage (800 2 bars HD, 400+ 1 bar 1 drive, 550 2 bars 1 drive), but still suffers from having poor normals outside of j. CD and cl. C.

Shen Woo is obviously good and extremely solid, but his main strength lies in spending meter for explosive damage. His normals are great and his mix up is strong, but without meter his main goal becomes to build meter, and his neutral game becomes much more limited. Also, his damage output is awesome, but still inferior to claw, karate and hwa. That's my reasoning behind not putting him higher.

In regards to Athena vs Kensou: Athena's dmg output is very very poor unless you consistently land her butt loop for a drive cancel combo. Also, her normals are all fairly mediocre. I guess her cr. C is pretty good. Otherwise she has a strong neutral game with fireball/uppercut/command grab.

But yeah, again please keep in mind that at least in my head, the difference between A and A- or B+ is very minor and can easily be overcome with an individual player's skill. And this is all just my own opinion, which I'm sure isn't 100% (or even 90%) accurate. The meta game has a long long way to go before we hit the limit. The only thing I know for sure is that Hwa and Karate are cheap lol

[Dandy J]

My main inquiry is regarding Kensou's vs Athena's placement. Athena clearly beats him out in almost every aspect. Her corner throw combos are stronger, her fireball game and anti-fireball game is mad stronger. Athena can beat Kensou out in pokes as well. Maybe I'm not seeing something Kensou has that makes him better, so please shed some light on your placement.

her jump is slower, her dp is a liability because of the speed and forward momentum (easy to get an angle to make it whiff). athena's normals dont allow her to throw something out to beat low jump, kensou at least has d. that said i think she's the most underrated character. she's got an invincible grab and gets like 500+ from it with 1 drive+ 1 super.

i still dont think hwa jai is in the highest tier. his drunk cross up is really cheap but technically you can roll out of it on reaction and hwa cant punish the roll no? his jump is slow. i think the best thing about the character is his neutral game, but i dont like the character as much as a lot of others when he doesnt have the advantage or life lead. my top 6 has been for awhile, karate beni kim kyo ex iori and shen.

[Kane317]

my top 6 has been for awhile, karate beni kim kyo ex iori and shen.

I totally agree that Athena is underrated.  I also agreed much like yourself, for some time, the top 6 but I still would replace Shen for Hwa.  

Hwa's damage output, non drunk, is still pretty high.  The Reynald corner combo that Ricky Diaz uses all the time that does like 610 (no jump in!) and you only need to start with 1 drive 1 stock as well.  From a light it's still close to 500. Factor how easy it is for Hwa to corner people and also how good his frame traps are, the aforementioned combo isn't as situational as it sounds.

Shen just can't convert damage like that.

[Crimson_King15]

Hey guys,

I totally wasn't expecting so many comments about the list I posted up, sorry I haven't checked back in a long while!

So, first off please notice that I've adjusted my opinion from before and currently believe that even the bottom tier of this game is B+, meaning totally viable.

When I rank characters (or think about how good they are) these are the main factors I consider:

1.) Damage output for meter spent (1 drive cancel or HD)

2.) Normals (frame data and hitbox properties)

3.) Neutral game

4.) Mix Up ability

Billy is low tier imo because of his poor damage output and mix up ability. His two really good normals are fwd A and j. CD, but he simply lacks the other straightforward things which make top tier characters good in this game. His main strength is his neutral game, which still isn't as effective when compared to characters like King, Kyo, and Iori.

Robert moved up for me since I've found (with help from Airlancer and Warahk) his optimized combos in all screen positions. He actually does very good damage (800 2 bars HD, 400+ 1 bar 1 drive, 550 2 bars 1 drive), but still suffers from having poor normals outside of j. CD and cl. C.

Shen Woo is obviously good and extremely solid, but his main strength lies in spending meter for explosive damage. His normals are great and his mix up is strong, but without meter his main goal becomes to build meter, and his neutral game becomes much more limited. Also, his damage output is awesome, but still inferior to claw, karate and hwa. That's my reasoning behind not putting him higher.

In regards to Athena vs Kensou: Athena's dmg output is very very poor unless you consistently land her butt loop for a drive cancel combo. Also, her normals are all fairly mediocre. I guess her cr. C is pretty good. Otherwise she has a strong neutral game with fireball/uppercut/command grab.

But yeah, again please keep in mind that at least in my head, the difference between A and A- or B+ is very minor and can easily be overcome with an individual player's skill. And this is all just my own opinion, which I'm sure isn't 100% (or even 90%) accurate. The meta game has a long long way to go before we hit the limit. The only thing I know for sure is that Hwa and Karate are cheap lol

If this was how you were rating characters beni should be top tier
Beni has great mix ups, high damage output with 1 meter, a plethora of mix ups off the same situation thanks to command grab, ability to change jump angle is 4 different ways not to mention meaty air fireball mix ups, great level one super in bio-dome, command grab that sets you up for him to do as he pleases and is instant mind you, ex command grab is an option that can set beni up for good damage anywhere on the screen, great footsies for pokeing and annoying the opponent, fast Neo max... I could go on forever

Why is terry so low? By no means is terry the lowest tier in the game and neither is joe! Terry has great damage, good frame traps, beautiful normals, guard crushing ability is there,  good mix ups. Have you seen mudon, madkof, or lacid play terry

As for joe he should be higher than he is. Joe is a great characters his pressure is nuts if you get people who know how to use dynamite punches for pressure. In between is frame trap game fireball game, over nice range on his more import normals juggle ability, mix ups of dynamite punch resets or even his ability to stun an opponent with 1 bar and drive into another combo that will give him even more meter Joe is a force to be reckoned with.

Also, if you think Billy's damage output is low you might want to check again. Billy gets tons of damage in the comer thanks to him having the NO drive special to special tricks.

The Ioris aren't as good as Kim.

We will pretend this was never said...

[Dandy J]

terry is solid, he just winds up in that category of characters where logically there's no reason to play him over other characters. if crack shoot was +1 on crouch block, jailed, and didnt get low profiled i think thred be more of a reason to play him.

joe is always going to be at the lower end. he has no mix up other than cr.short/throw and he is slow to guard break the opponent. hes got great pressure but it has to lead to something, especially considering he's lacking when it comes to anti-airs. the stun combo makes him good at punishing big mistakes, but at high level that's a hard thing to force. the character's flaw is really that he doesn't compliment himself...his combo damage makes him dangerous, but he needs meter for it, and from a gameplay perspective he is by far the best on point, since he can control mid-range and put on pressure without a ton of risk.

billy's weakness is pretty simple...he just doesnt get the high damage outside of the corner. you have to spend hd and 2 bars to break 500. he certainly isn't the lowest tier, though. most of the time you have to take more risk to deal with him than he does with you and he's always going to be relevant because of that.

really you can look at any character in this game and come up with reasons as to why they shouldn't be in the lowest tier...but someone has to be there, even if your lowest tier is B or something. so who's it going to be? who do you guys think are the weakest characters?

and kim being better than ioris? that's a perfectly valid argument. i think he's clearly better than claw, ex it's just matter of preference.

as for hwa i agree he does hemma damage. thats how i use him now, mostly don't use drunk mode, just do super high damage for not a lot of meter and the rest of the time do a lot of nothing but sit around and mash d and play the neutral game until i have an advantage. but the way i judge him not being top is looking at how he deals with being in all situations. both him and shen have a lot of the same things going on, but shen has the advantage over hwa when being put into a situation where he needs to make up a lead. 1. his hop is fast and low, with his jump cd covering a lot of space and jump c hitting really low, great for pressure and a lot harder to anti-air with supers and the like when compared to hwa. and 2. he deals with ppl jumping on his head better because of low c and explosion super. hwa doesn't have anything that hits there. hwa has the advantage in the neutral game with d and jabs, slide confirms and whatever, but that stuff isn't as valuable when you don't have the lead.

[Crimson_King15]

Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.

All Kim really has is easier confirms really.

Also terry does have frame advantage on blocked crack shoots especially meaty crackshoots which a lot of people don't do.lol it's only negative in certain situations also crack shoot as an AA is great because you can follow it up, terry has the ability to put an opponent in the corner no problem, can easily space an opponent out also if need be, great normals, good cross up game with jump c and d, great blow back moving him forward allowing him to Kara cancel moves for punishing or better position or hell just frame advantage, he can delay canceling his st d for even more mind games.

Also far st c... That is all

You think joe doesn't have a good mix up or pressure game? That's crazy... Asl the fact that you think joe can only use his stun combo off or people's mistakes means you don't see much joe in action. Joe can go into stun combo without 1 bar he can do it off his light slash kick doesn't cost drive until he starts the juggle... Also like I said he guard crush game is good because if you do dynamite punch and stop right at the 4the punch you have frame advantage you can frame trap off it, or if you hit someone you can link off of it.
Joe has multiple AAs tiger kick AA leads to a high damage juggle slide can be used to lower joes hitbox and if he hits you he can cancel to dynamite punch orrrrrrrr joe can just slide out the way

[Sharnt]

Both Iori and Kim are all three completly different characters. Saying who's best without any background discussion is just pointless. They have all very good weapons some are better than others depending the situation.

Moreover Kim works well without meter contrary to Claw who shines when he has full gauge, but I rather think that Kim he's more an easy to learn hard to master character while claw is more a straight forward killer. Ex Iori, seems really deep but I don't know enough to really talk about him.

[Dandy J]

You're looking at stuff from too much of a training mode/theory perspective and not taking everything into account.

Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.

All Kim really has is easier confirms really.

1. Better normals...you are insane. Kim has his D, an advancing, low crushing, leads to a combo, initiative-giving move. Stand B, the furthest-reaching normal that leads into any of his bnb combos, and stops hop. Kim doesn't have the absolute best normals for everything, but the only notable things Iori has on the ground is close C and jump D, which is not as strong in this game as it used to be, and when compared to other moves of the sort like Kyo close C (Kim close D does the same thing anyway). Iori far D is good, nothing special, a lot of characters have this type of move and many are better. Far B, it's nice but Kim's is obviously better; it reaches higher and leads to a combo. Air normals, not that comparable but honestly I think Kim's are better. Iori has jump D but it can be tripguarded, Kim's C has a similar use, and while it's a bit worse for air-to-air, you can use it in a way to not be tripguarded. He has his own crossup/low hitting jump A, and his CD reaches further.

2. Yes Iori's command grab is good...800-900 costs a shitload of meter though especially if you're starting with EX grab. I don't get the punish part though, since EX grab is 5f and that's slower than most characters close C/D.

3. Iori qcb+P does not allow Iori to keep the initiative after it is blocked, and he is fucked if someone jumps over it and hits him...Kim stand D stops jump-outs and low jumps. Leads to more damage doesn't matter when Iori is forced to use meter to convert off of it. Kim simply gets to start whatever combo he chooses. And qcb+P sole purpose is only crushing lows...Kim's D is used for offense, he can just do it and force the opponent to deal with it, qcb+P is not that kind of move. It may have some faster startup but it doesn't really matter since you can't hit buttons on Kim anyway because of stand B. Iori isn't anywhere close to as oppressive or safe from that range.

4. And better footsies...not even close. Kim stand B is the most powerful move of its kind in the game, period. Iori doesn't even have something comparable. Stand C lol?

Kim other advantages...he has a 3f ex flash kick anti-air, which since it's a charge you can't cross him up, and we all know how good cross-ups are in this game. EX qcb+K, + whatever on block, he can basically just spend that meter to get in, which is very valuable in close matches. And then he has has air EX qcb+K, a tool no one else in the game has. When it's down to the wire and people are looking for anti-air ex supers and such, nothing says fuck you like an invincible jump-in. He has the most dominant ground game, now on top of that you have to respect his jump in? which he can do double overheads from? lol. It's ridiculous.

Also terry does have frame advantage on blocked crack shoots especially meaty crackshoots which a lot of people don't do.lol it's only negative in certain situations also crack shoot as an AA is great because you can follow it up, terry has the ability to put an opponent in the corner no problem, can easily space an opponent out also if need be, great normals, good cross up game with jump c and d, great blow back moving him forward allowing him to Kara cancel moves for punishing or better position or hell just frame advantage, he can delay canceling his st d for even more mind games.

Also far st c... That is all

Crack shoot is only + if you block it crouching, and meaty crack shoot is a risk no one wants to take outside the first round, it's too see-able. It's not bad if the opponent has no meter but there's so many good ex supers or DPs that can be canceled into damage a lot of time it's not a good option. Yeah it can anti-air, but it's slow so you basically have to guess. Yeah his far C is cool, his cross-up is good, but his jump sucks unfortunately.

You think joe doesn't have a good mix up or pressure game? That's crazy... Asl the fact that you think joe can only use his stun combo off or people's mistakes means you don't see much joe in action. Joe can go into stun combo without 1 bar he can do it off his light slash kick doesn't cost drive until he starts the juggle... Also like I said he guard crush game is good because if you do dynamite punch and stop right at the 4the punch you have frame advantage you can frame trap off it, or if you hit someone you can link off of it.
Joe has multiple AAs tiger kick AA leads to a high damage juggle slide can be used to lower joes hitbox and if he hits you he can cancel to dynamite punch orrrrrrrr joe can just slide out the way

Well you didn't list a single mix-up or situation he can stun from anything other than a mistake so yes I think he doesn't have a good mix-up game. Tiger kick is super slow as hell, EX is good but when you've got to spend meter to anti-air...the character better have some major other advantages to make up for it, and Joe doesn't quite have that. In fact, he could have hwajais dp+B and he still wouldn't be top. Low-profile AAs are nice and all, but if the opponent guesses right, you're eating a combo. It's a tool for the character to use, but not a reason to fear them.

[marchefelix]

Shen Woo is obviously good and extremely solid, but his main strength lies in spending meter for explosive damage.

I disagree. I think Shen can do good damage without meter. Sure, he does awesome damage with it, but he's not limited without it.

His normals are great and his mix up is strong, but without meter his main goal becomes to build meter, and his neutral game becomes much more limited

Definitely not true. Every Shen I see in action, he's always trying to get in your face, meter or not.

I think the statement of relying on meter for big damage applies to Kim more. Without it, all he's really got is his bread-and-butter. He needs the meter to extend his combos further, and even then, Shen's damage w/ meter > Kim's damage with meter. This is why I think Shen should be higher than Kim.

You're looking at stuff from too much of a training mode/theory perspective and not taking everything into account.

Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.

All Kim really has is easier confirms really.

1. Better normals...you are insane. Kim has his D, an advancing, low crushing, leads to a combo, initiative-giving move. Stand B, the furthest-reaching normal that leads into any of his bnb combos, and stops hop. Kim doesn't have the absolute best normals for everything, but the only notable things Iori has on the ground is close C and jump D, which is not as strong in this game as it used to be, and when compared to other moves of the sort like Kyo close C (Kim close D does the same thing anyway). Iori far D is good, nothing special, a lot of characters have this type of move and many are better. Far B, it's nice but Kim's is obviously better; it reaches higher and leads to a combo. Air normals, not that comparable but honestly I think Kim's are better. Iori has jump D but it can be tripguarded, Kim's C has a similar use, and while it's a bit worse for air-to-air, you can use it in a way to not be tripguarded. He has his own crossup/low hitting jump A, and his CD reaches further.

2. Yes Iori's command grab is good...800-900 costs a shitload of meter though especially if you're starting with EX grab. I don't get the punish part though, since EX grab is 5f and that's slower than most characters close C/D.

3. Iori qcb+P does not allow Iori to keep the initiative after it is blocked, and he is fucked if someone jumps over it and hits him...Kim stand D stops jump-outs and low jumps. Leads to more damage doesn't matter when Iori is forced to use meter to convert off of it. Kim simply gets to start whatever combo he chooses. And qcb+P sole purpose is only crushing lows...Kim's D is used for offense, he can just do it and force the opponent to deal with it, qcb+P is not that kind of move. It may have some faster startup but it doesn't really matter since you can't hit buttons on Kim anyway because of stand B. Iori isn't anywhere close to as oppressive or safe from that range.

4. And better footsies...not even close. Kim stand B is the most powerful move of its kind in the game, period. Iori doesn't even have something comparable. Stand C lol?

Kim other advantages...he has a 3f ex flash kick anti-air, which since it's a charge you can't cross him up, and we all know how good cross-ups are in this game. EX qcb+K, + whatever on block, he can basically just spend that meter to get in, which is very valuable in close matches. And then he has has air EX qcb+K, a tool no one else in the game has. When it's down to the wire and people are looking for anti-air ex supers and such, nothing says fuck you like an invincible jump-in. He has the most dominant ground game, now on top of that you have to respect his jump in? which he can do double overheads from? lol. It's ridiculous.

This argument is just hilarious. I'm supposed to believe Kim is better than Iori because of better normals and good EX specials? lol...

What about Kim's normal specials? His DMs? Upon examining those, it proves that Iori is still better. Kim's normal specials aren't that great. In fact, they're quite pitiful compared to some characters. Both versions of his qcb + K are unsafe on block. His air qcb + K is good only as a combo finisher. God forbid you accidentally do this in a HD combo, because you've sabotaged your own combo. His up-charge K move is a decent anti-air, but because it is a charge move, it takes a while to come out (not to mention, it is extremely unsafe if missed). And his dive kick... who the fuck uses that shit? No one does! Because it sucks! Even the EX version of that isn't really worth it! In pointing out how good his EX specials are, you're practically saying that he has to depend on his meter to get good use out of his moves, since his normal specials aren't all that great.

At a glance, it seems Kim has Iori beat in the DM department, only because Kim has more at his disposal. But Iori's DM does more damage than Kim's ranbu DM. Also, not many people get good use out of Kim's air ranbu. The only real use for Kim's qcf x 2 + K seems to be in HD combos.



So yeah, Kim is not above Iori, all things considered. He may have better normals than Iori, as well as great EX specials, but that is nowhere near enough to place him in top. I don't even consider Kim above Shen for reasons I've already listed.

Just because the Koreans, who may be the best KOF players in the world at the moment, are good with Kim, it doesn't automatically grant him a place in top tier. He lacks things that would place him there, such as good normal specials, as well as different bnb's. You guys need to stop saying Kim is top tier. He isn't. Period.

[desmond_kof]

Both versions of his qcb + K are unsafe on block.

You can make his qcb+B safer if you place it at the end of a blockstring. But knowing they both arent very safe does not mean you should just use them a blockstring at all. It's best to confirm into those.

His air qcb + K is good only as a combo finisher.

It's a good combo finisher, and it gives the opponent a hard knockdown which is good for oki. You can also use it as a delayed overhead by itself if you back dash them perform it, or even to pause slightly in the air to avoid projectiles. You can also cancel it from his j.A (as a double overhead which I believe Dandy J mentioned) and his j.CD to catch people blocking low after an overhead. It will also make it safe on block too, but instant command throws will catch it.

His up-charge K move is a decent anti-air, but because it is a charge move, it takes a while to come out (not to mention, it is extremely unsafe if missed).

The charge isn't that long...and yes if it is missed you can be punished hard, so it's best to use that move as carefully and cautiously as you can.

And his dive kick... who the fuck uses that shit? No one does! Because it sucks! Even the EX version of that isn't really worth it!

I agree the dive kick is rather weak damage and spacing wise but you can use it to pause yourself mid air against projectiles to throw opponents off and TK it to build meter. The EX version is only good because it is safe on block and you can link it in easily into other special moves (like his heavy kick flash kick or his qcb+B) in the corner. You can also use it to chip some damage on block too if needed.

The only real use for Kim's qcf x 2 + K seems to be in HD combos.

You can use the light kick version to anti-air jumping opponents then follow up with a ff+A into qcb+K because it has more upper body invincibility than the heavy kick version.

Just because the Koreans, who may be the best KOF players in the world at the moment, are good with Kim, it doesn't automatically grant him a place in top tier. He lacks things that would place him there, such as good normal specials, as well as different bnb's. You guys need to stop saying Kim is top tier. He isn't. Period.

You gotta look at more about the options Kim has both offensive and defensively as a whole rather than the amount of different bnbs and the quality and damage of his normal specials. His main meterless bnb confirm (that ends in qcb+B) gives the opponent a hard knockdown for a safe jump opportunity which is very powerful and annoying. Then you can skip the safe jump and empty jump low as a mixup, etc.

As Dandy J mentioned his normals are very, very useful in many situations and how useful his EX flash kick is defensively and how you can avoid damn near anything with his air EX qcb+K. Kim just has a lot of great tools that makes him frustrating and scary to deal with...which is why he is on my team.

[marchefelix]

You gotta look at more about the options Kim has both offensive and defensively as a whole rather than the amount of different bnbs and the quality and damage of his normal specials.

Except I wasn't doing that. I was merely addressing what Dandy J didn't.

I can see how Kim's normals are really good, and I KNOW that his EX specials are godlike. I didn't take into consideration his pressure game, but how much does that vary among characters? If you can tell me how much pressure games vary among characters, I may reconsider my opinion of him somewhat.

[desmond_kof]

You gotta look at more about the options Kim has both offensive and defensively as a whole rather than the amount of different bnbs and the quality and damage of his normal specials.

Except I wasn't doing that. I was merely addressing what Dandy J didn't.

I can see how Kim's normals are really good, and I KNOW that his EX specials are godlike. I didn't take into consideration his pressure game, but how much does that vary among characters? If you can tell me how much pressure games vary among characters, I may consider putting him above Shen.

Have you ever seriously played against a good (not even great) Kim before? Ever?

[Running Wild]

Seriously dude... this is motherfucking Kim Kaphwan here.

He's good in every single game he's ever been in.

I don't play KOF Kim though. Just FF Kim.

I should play KOF Kim though...

[Dandy J]

??? what sense does it make to categorically compare move sets? All that matters is how the character deals with every possible situation how well they do it. A move is unsafe or not that useful? Don't use it. His flash kick is unsafe when blocked? So is every other invincible move. From everything you posted it doesn't seem like you're familiar at all with the character. Air qcb+K is useless outside of combos? Like Desmond said, air qcb+D is overhead and it's + frames when done low to the ground. You can use it for double overheads from a jump-in, from a backdash to hit people flinching, or just tiger knee it. And why does it matter that you can do it accidentally in combo? You could also accidentally unplug your controller when playing, so you'd better watch out for that as well. Air EX qcb+K useless? Again reiterating what Desmond said, and what I said in my previous post, it's one of the best moves in the entire game. It's literally an invincible jump-in. It BEATS Mr. Karate's ex super LOL. Imagine Kim has some bar and comes at you, you can't hit anything on the ground because of st.B, and when he jumps you can't anti-air because of he does qcb+KK you're eating a combo. Iori, and anyone else for that matter cannot oppress the opponent to the same extent that Kim does. Also, qcfx2+K super is an invincible level 1 and gives pretty buff damage for a level 1 since you get a combo after. It's also advantage on block, but you can buffer AB during the flash and punish it.

[Crimson_King15]

??? what sense does it make to categorically compare move sets? All that matters is how the character deals with every possible situation how well they do it. A move is unsafe or not that useful? Don't use it. His flash kick is unsafe when blocked? So is every other invincible move. From everything you posted it doesn't seem like you're familiar at all with the character. Air qcb+K is useless outside of combos? Like Desmond said, air qcb+D is overhead and it's + frames when done low to the ground. You can use it for double overheads from a jump-in, from a backdash to hit people flinching, or just tiger knee it. And why does it matter that you can do it accidentally in combo? You could also accidentally unplug your controller when playing, so you'd better watch out for that as well. Air EX qcb+K useless? Again reiterating what Desmond said, and what I said in my previous post, it's one of the best moves in the entire game. It's literally an invincible jump-in. It BEATS Mr. Karate's ex super LOL. Imagine Kim has some bar and comes at you, you can't hit anything on the ground because of st.B, and when he jumps you can't anti-air because of he does qcb+KK you're eating a combo. Iori, and anyone else for that matter cannot oppress the opponent to the same extent that Kim does. Also, qcfx2+K super is an invincible level 1 and gives pretty buff damage for a level 1 since you get a combo after. It's also advantage on block, but you can buffer AB during the flash and punish it.

1. It doesn't beat mr karats super unless mr karate does his super right at the begining of the ex qcb k because if you didn't know it's not invincible through whole animation. Which is why Terry's ex busta wolf can punch him in the mouth or even terries rising tackle if he tries that, or mr karats invinc dp super can beat it out.

2. Also who said you can't Anti air him because of ex qcb kk? You need to learn the game if you think that prevents you from AAing someone because they have 1 solid air option in their arsenal. That's like saying you can't jump at kyo because he has an invincible ground dp. Watch patterns and pick spots son.

3. Kim's st b is -6  which is bad for a normal. I can literally smack that move on block with Iori's cr c with no problem...

4. Kim's qcb+c in the air is decent but it's not actually all that good. Because that move has a nice amount of start up you have tons of time to see Kim beginning to flip back at you and then he still has to bring his foot down.

5. Kim's super is positive on block but he gets no pressure out of it and  it's easily punishable if you spend a bar to roll cancel punish or just mash roll.

6. Also there are tons of character who lock people down better than Kim. RALF being one of the best in your face characters in the game, Shen. Leona with a 50/50 at all times, mr karate, hwa, and there are more.

7. Last you don't always get a combo off ex qcb+kk because its height, range, and screen specific
. You can hit them with it too high and you land to late to flow up. You hit them with the tip of the move and you're too far away to follow