Author Topic: terry bogard matchup thread  (Read 9716 times)

Crimson_King15

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 05:01:19 AM »
I'm having trouble in match-ups where my st.A / df.C gets stuffed a lot. Things like Clark hop and jump j.B / j.CD seems to always get me.

I'm not fully aware of all moves where df.C is not a good anti-air on jumps. Another one that gets me off the top of my head, while Terry is cornered, I can't seem to df.C Chin when he does full jumps on me.

I think that Df+c is always a valid AA it's about timing and spacing though.
It's 4 frames sometime it may trade but remember it gets a soft KD so that's fine

dmick1981

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 12:53:37 AM »
im having real trouble punishing clarks  ;bk ;fd ;a, ;c and ex  ;bk ;fd ;a ;c into  ;a, ;c and ex command grab with terry. ive punished it in training mode but when i play my buddys clark it dosent seem to work. is it spacing dependent or dose it just not work

SPLIPH

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 07:14:17 AM »
You should punish with st.B and far C. ( 6 and 7 frames)

IIRC, A Gatling is -10, C Gatling -16, EX Gatling -10.

With practice it shouldn't be any problem to do consistently offline. Online it is tough to always get it. You can cancel into Buster Wolf or an HD combo when you're confident at punishing it.

I don't think there's any spacing issues with st.B and far C. At -10 it is just a stricter punish when you can only throw out a 6 or 7 frame move.

I can't remember if cr.B always connects, but an easier punish would be cr.B > qcf.B > qcf.B

Edit: I probly shouldn't had said anything before since I hadn't played in awhile, heheh. No one has bothered to correct me yet though. I think best punishes would be cr.C and df.C. If you are having trouble with consistency I think df.C is the best bet since it's 4 frames. Both easy to cancel into specials and HD.

The only real thing to watch out for is if the 1st hit is blocked and the 2nd hit whiffs. It's still punishable, but that's easy to throw off your timing if you're not expecting it. I unfortunately can't give any advice as when to expect the 2nd hit to whiff or not.

The 1st hit can whiff while the 2nd hit connects, but that's a bit easier to react and punish.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 01:52:39 AM by SPLIPH »

CaptainGinyu

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 04:03:23 AM »
Hi everyone,

Does anyone have any general tops for fighting Elizabeth? My friend just bodied me with her at a meet up.
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 07:16:26 AM »
For Elizabeth, the way I would approach her is getting in and staying in. She doesn't have really good normals close up, but her fireball, teleport, DP, and command grab are all problematic. However, if you keep her pinned down with normals, she can't do much. From very far away, she can't do anything either and you can't do anything to her so you want to get a knock down from far away and work your way in so she's on defense.

Start off from about mid-range. You can test to see what the person likes to do by throwing the A power wave. If they like to hop, you'll have to respect it as her j.D and j.CD are relatively long reaching and will net her some damage if she hits you with them. Avoid giving her any clean air-to-airs, play on the ground if you can. If she tries to use her fireball to negate things, switch it up and use C power wave. She'll get knocked down and can't dispel it. Get in on her and stick to her.


If she has meter, you want to be careful of her counter, but for the most part, it's a pretty non-issue. Bait people who like to counter by empty jumping. Go in for a low right after to keep them honest and get a combo. Her DP is also invincible and her EX teleport as well. That's why I say stick to mid range where most of this stuff will whiff, but she has to move in on you for damage.  Without meter, her DP isn't invulnerable (or safe, sweep her after), her teleport isn't really good, and her command throw is not a combo extender. Keep pressuring her with st.B to make her frustrated and push her into the corner where she can't run.


If you can, throw in some frame traps like D crackshoot or delay normals like d.A into d.C so they're more likely not to block. Elizabeth, again, doesn't have very good normals so you can tag her if she's trying to get out with specials. Worse she can do is try to normal throw you; none of her normals or specials are super fast and you can tech the throw.

I play a lot of Elizabeth players so I'm used to it.

CaptainGinyu

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 04:31:00 PM »
Thanks Reiki! Good to get some Terry info from one of the best!
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 09:48:20 PM »
Wouldn't say I'm deserving of that honor, but I appreciate you appreciate my advice.

Crimson_King15

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2013, 04:42:10 AM »
For Elizabeth, the way I would approach her is getting in and staying in. She doesn't have really good normals close up, but her fireball, teleport, DP, and command grab are all problematic. However, if you keep her pinned down with normals, she can't do much. From very far away, she can't do anything either and you can't do anything to her so you want to get a knock down from far away and work your way in so she's on defense.

Start off from about mid-range. You can test to see what the person likes to do by throwing the A power wave. If they like to hop, you'll have to respect it as her j.D and j.CD are relatively long reaching and will net her some damage if she hits you with them. Avoid giving her any clean air-to-airs, play on the ground if you can. If she tries to use her fireball to negate things, switch it up and use C power wave. She'll get knocked down and can't dispel it. Get in on her and stick to her.


If she has meter, you want to be careful of her counter, but for the most part, it's a pretty non-issue. Bait people who like to counter by empty jumping. Go in for a low right after to keep them honest and get a combo. Her DP is also invincible and her EX teleport as well. That's why I say stick to mid range where most of this stuff will whiff, but she has to move in on you for damage.  Without meter, her DP isn't invulnerable (or safe, sweep her after), her teleport isn't really good, and her command throw is not a combo extender. Keep pressuring her with st.B to make her frustrated and push her into the corner where she can't run.


If you can, throw in some frame traps like D crackshoot or delay normals like d.A into d.C so they're more likely not to block. Elizabeth, again, doesn't have very good normals so you can tag her if she's trying to get out with specials. Worse she can do is try to normal throw you; none of her normals or specials are super fast and you can tech the throw.

I play a lot of Elizabeth players so I'm used to it.


A few things to add/change

Terry has nothing to fear from her hop d or hop cd well nothing more so than he would any other person with a jump attack with a downward angles hurt box terry can easily AA her 9/10 with df+c, fr st c, or rising tackle depending on your positioning. Only time you really don't have a shot at AAing her is if you are chucking fireballs at mid screen when is honestly the last thing you should really be doing in a match up with a character who's hop/jump has as much range and speed as hers does she can literally jump in and punish you from 3/4 the screen so be aware doing that puts you in the danger zone not to mention with 1 bar she can just go through it and bop you into the air for a combo. Only start throwing projectiles in that range once you have established air to air superiority and ground to air superiority because that way you can ensure she stays on her toes. Another reason not to chuck plasma is because it gives her meter and does nothing for you unless she blocks it which at 3/4 screen or mid range she has no reason to because she can qcf+A or qcf+C it.

Also going air to air with Liz isn't a bad idea at all considering the most threatening option she has in case of a trade a super which does little to no damage but simply gives her mix up positioning something terry doesn't worry about as much as everyone else if he has a bar since ex tackle is 4 frames and hits on both sides. So if she tries any cross up shenanigans you can hit her out free and reset the situation. I advocate going air to air with Liz because of the awkward angle of her better jump normals and the lack of range on her light ones. Terry's jump b is no Iori jump b, but the range and the 4 frame start up not to mention the horizontal hitbox ensures her jump cd and jump d won't be hitting you since they go down at a weird angle and don't stick out 100% horizontally.

Lastly, once you start checking the Liz player and keeping her on the ground do everything rei said keep her in check via normal superiority. Don't not use crack shots, but just space them appropriately so you don't get command grab punished if they block them standing. St b is your friend and main form of frame advantage great way to end strings so you can keep your pressure going. Don't be afraid to the ex power waves at hops or even when you have them in a block string. Make her burn that meter, take the mix up, or lose a hell of a lot of guard bar it's that player's choice. One way to tell how good a person is at fighting terry is throw and ex power wave and see if they gaurd cancel blow back you or gc roll you. If they roll you they are knowledgeable about this situation. If they blow back you exploit the hell out of it by running up and just blocking it or jumping and crossing them up with a jump d as they attempt the blow back. Reason being is gc blow backs are unsafe on block and even worse on whiff. If they do it destroy that persons very soul until there is nothing left and I mean nothing!

Another good thing you can do is play the player not just the character. At that person's good and bad habits then counter and take advantage of those. Don't put too much focus on the character match up that you forget there is still a person behind the controller using them.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 05:39:23 AM by Crimson_King15 »

CaptainGinyu

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2013, 08:49:12 AM »
Hey everyone, are Crackshoot frametraps a good idea? I don't see many Terry's go for them outside of Japan and when I try them I just get blown up, are they something to really focus on when practicing Terry?
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Sharnt

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2013, 06:42:32 PM »
NB: I'm not a Terry player but that's how I understand his gamestyle. Some people may argue with my advices.


The thing is, if your crackshoot D is blocked high, you're -1.
That means against a 1 frame throw you're doomed, hopefully if you do it after a few light you can't be normal thrown except in the corner (and even here it might not work). But you better forget it against 1f grapplers.

Then if your opponent doesn't have a 3 frame move you can try to do your s.C afterward (since you're -1, you're supposed to trade at worste and if it hits well free combo, if it's guarded free pressure!). And once he is used too it you start doing slower moves such as d.B or throws, consider jumps if he tries to mash lows to bait the throw (If you just do s.C he guards high and you will never open his guard).

If he does have a 3f you have to make him fear the rising tackle, so the first time you do your crackshoot, throw a good rising tackle afterward (Because he's gonna mash his 3f to gain the advantage). Well if you get punished it's your fault for not being good at mind games :D (Do not abuse of it obly, if you could get killed by the punition you might want to stick to a safe gameplan, you're at a disadvantage afterall).
But you have to take this risk from times to times to be respected. After that you can start to throw your s.C, and get back to the previous gameplan, with rising tackles when your opponent gets a bit moving.

From afar some 3f might come out in their far version netting you a free combo since Terry s.C has a lot of range and the first frame of their s.C will make them closer making you sure your s.C comes out in his close form. I do know I got trapped with my Kyo like that some times. You might want to work on specific setups for that.

If the crackshoot is blocked low it's free cookies and pressure since you're +2.

Never forget that Terry main opening is guard crush. He does a ton of it, and the ex fireball does really help. So if your frametraps are blocked, it means that if you make him guard the next one you will surely crush his guard. So you should consider to wait and see their reaction, because most player will panick and do a DP, a roll or a jump, either way you can punish them and start to repress with their guard gauge half empty.


Here i'm assuming that the s.B hits low, and you can't be normal thrown after d.B,d.A,qcb.D guarded high (Doesn't have the game at hand right now, so I would be glad if you could confirm it :D).

Another way to mix is to do d.B,d.A (you can delay quite a lot to let you the time to confirm) d.C if it does hit, and then mix a little with either canceling the d.A into crackshoot, or doing s.B, crackshoot (d.B,d.A,s.B,qcb.D), if they get up for blocking the crackshoot high after d.A they take the risk to eat the s.B. Once they wait the crackshoot after d.A or s.B, just do d.B throw.
There is (should be, not sure again) a hole between d.A and crackshoot D, but if your opponent mash a dp between and you do s.B it's gonna hit, because it's a blockstring and he needs to stand up for buffering the motion.
However there is nothing preventing them to do a reversal between s.B and your crackshoot, so be careful.
Again if they stand up after s.B for guarding the crackshoot you can throw a sweep.


BTW you can do frametraps after lows or d.As, but it's not under the scope of your question :D
Either way you have to mix things, and try to predict your opponent next reaction.

Any critic or comment is appreciated. Especially from experienced terry players.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 07:23:30 PM by Sharnt »
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2013, 12:16:53 AM »
I think something to note is the fact that we've not (in good form) defined where it's safe to use crackshoot without any repercussions possible. This is a good piece so far, but maybe setting up frame traps which can end with B crackshoot spaced so far that it can't be punished would be helpful.

Another thing to note, against experienced players who've had experience against Terry, they will hold forward or back (heavy button). They can punish you for doing that if you're trying to do rising tackle, if you're trying to jump, or press a button afterwards. You can tech the normal throw, but it's much easier for the defensive player to take away your options after the crackshoot by playing the throw option.

I've been toying with how would be the optimal response to continue our pressure, but avoid the throw option taking away our mix-up opportunities. However, it always seems to be the same. That's the one big weakness there.

Sharnt

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2013, 02:13:36 AM »
Yeah but you're too far after some normals to be normal thrown, aren't you?

Basically the mind game is if you can be thrown, for the defending player to throw and when he knows you're going to tech just do is 3f and score a full combo. And this mindgame is totally at Terry's disadvantage.

That's why you have to set up your crackshoot to always be too far for being (normal) thrown.

If you want to test your setups use Chin, he has the maximum throw range in the game.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:21:51 AM by Sharnt »
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2013, 03:56:20 AM »
That's what I meant.

There's no list of safe spacing for it. If you have that, you can go from there.

For B crackshoot, you have d.B, st.B, st.CD, B Crackshoot. I also would say point blank, you have d.B, st.B, df+C, B Crackshoot, but that's a bit closer than st.CD. It's a frame trap in one as st.B links with df+C, making it a pretty tight frame trap anyway. You can hit confirm the df+C if they try to poke.


So, you're close enough for most 1F command grabs if you do d.B, st.B, df+C. If you notice that d.B, st.B is blocked, a fast enough frame trap is d.A, d.C. That actually is really good and spaces your follow up crackshoot enough so you can't be punished.

So don't do: d.B, st.B, df+C, qcb+B on block (Can be thrown or command grabbed)

Do: d.B, st.B, d.A, d.C, qcb+B on block (Can't be thrown or command grabbed, good spacing for st.B, st.C, sweep, etc)
OR
1. d.B, d.B, d.A, d.C, qcb+B
2. d.B, st.B, st.CD, qcb+B
3. d.B, d.A, (delay), d.B, st.B, qcb+B

Notes:
These setups place you in a distance where you cannot be easily punished or punished at all by characters with command grabs, normal throws, and fast normals, utilizing qcb+(K) (Crackshoot) to the best of its ability.

All of these can be substituted for qcb+D.
If qcb+D is done, Terry is susceptible to normal throwing (f+(Heavy) only). Prepare to tech.
-Great spacing for baiting people into punishing with back throw or command grabs or for people scared to respond.
-When in doubt, Rising tackle out. Beats most responses with its invulnerability

All qcb+B setups are unthrowable setups.
If blocked standing w/ qcb+B, Terry is at -2. His fastest response from that range is d.B (4F). Meaning you will lose to anything 6F or faster.
-Good against grapplers or characters who have slow normals or reliant on far reaching heavy normals
-Will trade or lose with people mashing crouching light normals 4F or faster, DP if this becomes their response.
- d.A (at max range), d.C and d.B, st.B are possible afterwards for combo potential.
-Far spacing makes DPs risky.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 11:52:06 PM by Reiki.Kito »

CaptainGinyu

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2013, 04:03:41 AM »
It sounds like the risk-reward isn't particularly in Terry's favor though the guard break potential sounds like it could be worth it.
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: terry bogard matchup thread
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2013, 05:34:28 AM »
It sounds like the risk-reward isn't particularly in Terry's favor though the guard break potential sounds like it could be worth it.

Oh, if you manage to keep on someone and force them to sit still, you're going to crush them easy. Not many people can do that.

I took the liberty of making a few blockstrings you could use to do the crackshoot pressure. You can do them with D Crackshoot, but B is harder to react to as its in a block string. It's -1 all the time, but it's still the surprise factor.

@Sharnt: st.B does not hit low and d.B, d.A does put you pretty close, but if you look at my post, the blockstrings I put up get you in a close enough distance to keep attacking without being thrown.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 09:42:38 AM by Reiki.Kito »