Balance issues and constructive suggestions

[MUSOLINI]

only thing tht really needs to be done is lower the damage and its all good. level 4 should be around 175 damage max and come out in 3 or 4 frames. level 3 150 damage, 2 for 125 damage and 1 for 100. something like this. 250 is too much, twice means half your life gone, add ex tackles and nm and its way too much.

[Kane317]

only thing tht really needs to be done is lower the damage and its all good. level 4 should be around 175 damage max and come out in 3 or 4 frames. level 3 150 damage, 2 for 125 damage and 1 for 100. something like this. 250 is too much, twice means half your life gone, add ex tackles and nm and its way too much.

What do you think about leaving the damage the way it is, making lvl 3 and 4 an Ex move, and removing the GCDK.  That way they'll need 3 stocks, 1 drive to do 60% which is reasonable--plus of course the charge time he needs (if he wants to do NM after a double dropkick that'll be 5 stocks which is reasonable again).  Oh and, reduce his ability to guard crush by a bit.  That way they don't hit him with a nerf stick too hard. 

That way, he can still do the juggle anywhere, can't GCDK, but can still do some Guard Crushing, still need to charge the 12-16 sec, but needs stocks for lvl4&4.  Still a good threat, but not insane in the current form he is.

[Rex Dart]

That would definitely be an improvement. Although I'm not sure how I feel about a one button charge becoming an EX move after a certain amount of time. It sounds a little imprecise? I'd rather they required you to charge and release both buttons simultaneously. Which would mean they couldn't string two together, but they'd be able to charge the Godkick faster. But hey, that's mostly personal preference.

Regarding balance, who would people name as de facto "balanced" characters? Which character(s) are right in the middle of this game's imaginary tier list, in your opinion? Compared to previous KOFs, I think the mid-tier characters in XIII have a ton of stuff going for them.

One of the first characters I think of is Kensou.

[MUSOLINI]

terry and kim are the shit, yet you never see them (well, kim found his way into the vids). giving terry an air burning knuckle would have been awesome (like in the ff2 anime), light version shoots it off like a fb and the hard version slams into the opponent like the ending of his powerdunk. but lets forget theory fighter, back to the balance issues.

you got a point but im not really feeling it kane. the dropkick should be a threat, and a way to get 100% combos, but only if you have 5 bars. personally lowering the damage would be the best idea, hes still a threat but not overpowered. either you dont charge and get the same damage from command throws and other ways that you cant now because of charging the dropkick, or you dropkick and do the same damage depending on your play style. now dropkick is the way to go, ,mainly because of the damage. 16 second to your death is just too much (damage). 3 command throws do the same damaghe as 2 fully loaded dropkicks, cept you cant follow afterwards. lowering the damage would really fix things up imo.

also did k's jump d bug get taken out or what?

[Delta]

also did k's jump d bug get taken out or what?

According to early reports, only big glitches and infinites are removed, nothing changed to gameplay or balance.
So K's jump D thingy must be there.

[THE ANSWER]

What's K's jump D bug?

[Kane317]

What's K's jump D bug?

Isn't the weird one we saw in that video versus Kyo?  Something like it skips blockstun or something weird like that, I forget.

EDIT:I dunno if this sheds some light but c&p from ON:

-The lag in K's guard cancel forward roll has been removed

[Chowdizzle]

WOOOOOW! So when Takuma was doing his EX moves without a full bar it was cuz of a game glitch? Lol I was under the impression that EX moves just cost 1/2 a bar. Damn, that woulda been cool (though ridiculous for a lot of characters).

If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.

[Rex Dart]

If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.

With a full HD gauge, Takuma can do 90% damage with ONE power bar. And that's just with a DM at the end. Leaving that out should still do over 70%.

Takuma is basically god of combos. Defense is his big weakness.

[Kane317]

If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.

With a full HD gauge, Takuma can do 90% damage with ONE power bar. And that's just with a DM at the end. Leaving that out should still do over 70%.

Takuma is basically god of combos. Defense is his big weakness.

Takuma is kinda like Shen to me.  He's incredibly competent in certain areas yet lacking in others (defense for both of them actually) which spells balance to me.  Both have easy to learn combos, both have decent normals, Takuma has a crossup, Shen has a reflect, both are HD monsters as well, both have command grabs that lead into combos (although Shen's need to be an Ex grab). 

Both solid characters, and even with the bugs removed, I think Takuma is A borderline A+.  Shen is like a solid A.

[Chowdizzle]

If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.

With a full HD gauge, Takuma can do 90% damage with ONE power bar. And that's just with a DM at the end. Leaving that out should still do over 70%.

Takuma is basically god of combos. Defense is his big weakness.

Takuma is kinda like Shen to me.  He's incredibly competent in certain areas yet lacking in others (defense for both of them actually) which spells balance to me.  Both have easy to learn combos, both have decent normals, Takuma has a crossup, Shen has a reflect, both are HD monsters as well, both have command grabs that lead into combos (although Shen's need to be an Ex grab). 

Both solid characters, and even with the bugs removed, I think Takuma is A borderline A+.  Shen is like a solid A.

Awesome, I like to pick lower tier characters generally (like my SSFIV main is Gouken) just because I always respected the low tier players more than the high but sometimes I just love a character too much to care and Takuma looks way too badass. He's got one of the sickest command lists I've seen and I'm so eager to learn him.

[Kane317]

More Spring cleaning, with the patch v1.1 out I think it's clear that the bugs were not intended, and despite how some individuals rather have it in, SNKP lay down their opinion about it.  Thread locked. EDIT:  AND it's reopened about balance issues.

[Rex Dart]

Yeah, it's not like SNKP didn't deserve most of the criticism it got re: XII. But I thought Ignition handled it in a noticeably un-professional manner. If I were in SNK's place, I wouldn't want to work with them again either.

I'd like to bring up the issue of game re-balancing again. (If this isn't the right topic for this, please move.) After good netcode, I think re-balancing is the most important thing SNK can do to extend XIII's longevity. I mean, if so many in the online community cringe at the amount of K' and Raiden in videos, I can't imagine more casual fans will enjoy fighting so many of them online. So, who needs fixing?

Raiden: We've already talked about Raiden at length, and all the fixes for him revolve around one thing: fixing the drop kicks. 'Nuff said.

K': K' is another god-tier, right next to Raiden, but I've very few suggestions on how he could be better-balanced. They could lower his overall damage. Perhaps fiddle with the hit boxes on some of his normals. I'm not sure what would be the best way to balance him without pissing off his fans, though.

Elizabeth: I think it's obvious what's over-powered about Elizabeth, but it's hard for me to say exactly what should be changed to prevent uppercut -> uppercut DM abuse. Maybe making the uppercut very unsafe on block? Make the DM slower? Make the A version not juggle the opponent as high? Make the DM weaker? What does everything think?

Kula: Once again, not sure what would be best here. Maybe lower her damage, or, alternatively, lower her defense. She is a little girl, after all. Alternatively, some people may feel she isn't strong enough to justify a nerf.

Rest of the cast: I don't think any of the cast are weak enough to actually require improvements or anything. But some could certainly benefit from it.

So, what does everyone else think?

[solidshark]

Honestly, outside of Raiden's drop kicks, I might not opt for the rebalancing of the top tiers. One thing I'd love to see is more videos from players worldwide, or SNKP themselves on how characters other than K', Raiden, Elizabeth, and Kula can dominate. If it's one thing the technical vids have proven, it's that everyone has a shot. Even lower-tiered characters have advantages that would be critical to winning a match. If it wasn't for Kane and other great Chin players, how much lower would Chin be on the list without showing what that old drunk can actually do? People have been showing how ridiculously powerful Shen could be in the right hands, as well as Andy and Leona. Since everyone is well(enough) equipped in the game, maybe more groups that have access to XIII can go into depth with other characters and show why they're just as dangerous as. Terry, Kim, Benimaru, Athena, Joe, Hwa, Clark, the list goes on.

I know when the game releases on console I'll be working on the low-tier before I touch the infamous 4, just to show players around me and online that a robust cast is just waiting to be used. I know I won't be the only one, but I hope I'm not one of the few.

[Xxenace]

well im all for the nerfing of those said characters cause honestly i haven't seen anybody i want to use in a video for a long time