I agree that by playing both characters you know their weakness but without playing against an Iori the you don't realize how good some of his stuff are (you'll just have a rough idea). For example, after a bunch of you picked up Chin, I realized how blocking a d.B from Chin then trying to block his overhead feels like you're stuck in that crouching position. I wouldn't have known until I played against Chins, before that I just thought ppl kept getting hit lol. I can't remember who was with me but they instantly agreed with me and they were the one using Chin on me.
One more thing about the meter thing, it's not safe to stand near (of course nobody should stand next to a 1 frame command thrower) a waking Iori or Shen when they have 2 meters. However it's relatively safe to stand next to a Shen when they only have 1 meter, just stand outside his CABC range--it's dangerous, but you can jump Shen's Ex qcfx2+AC DM and most ppl won't risk doing the Ex DM with someone standing at that range. Iori however, can cover that spot that with his Ex DP and his Ex qcb+AC (I should know, I get hit by all the time). Furthermore, and correct me if I'm wrong, if Iori connects with his qcb+AC or dp+AC, can't he follow up with a few extra hits?
Chris plays Iori, and I played him a bunch back at AI. Although he doesn't know the non-HD juggles, I still know what his strengths are. I can pretty much predict when he's going to do qcb+AC and EX command grab. From playing against him it seems like Iori's speed and j.C and j.B are the best things he has going for him. He also tried using his overhead but after getting punished or poked out of it too many times, he completely stopped using it as well. He also once in a while used non-EX command throw but now rarely uses it due to the same issue.
As for Iori's EX's his dp is completely punishable and his EX DM is also punishable but has a shorter window. After his EX dp, you can't juggle after, only qcb+AC you can juggle after with only a DM or dp+A midscreen. As with both Shen's level2's, it's the same with Iori, if you know it's coming there are ways around it. If a qcb+AC is coming from Iori, roll forward or vertical jump to punish. EX dp+AC can be hopped over just like Shen's qcf+AC as well.
A good analogy of what I think Iori's normals are like is Dan from SF. Sure Iori has overhead (worst one in the game), dp, dashing special, but they're really not that great without using an EX version. The difference here is that his normals and speed are good.
For Iori the only special attack worth using non-EX is his qcb+K or nearly pre-emptive dp+A. Shen would be able to use command grab, qcf+P (cancel for meter as well), pre-emptive qcf+K for anti-air, and qcb+A against fireballs. So for non-EX attacks Shen comes on top.
With EX attacks however, Iori does have better options, but since they consume meter, it can only be done limited amount of times, even less often if you follow up with supers.
With that Shen definitely is better as a first character. As for 2nd or 3rd character it'll depend on meter management for Iori.
You know there are plenty of characters that have good defensive options with and without meter in higher, same, and lower tier. What we're doing here is comparing options and tool set of special attacks now. I mean Robert and Athena aren't exactly top tier and ranked lower than both Shen and Iori, but they has pretty much everything.
I'm starting to this this discussion on which of the 2 are better is insignificant seeing on how we agree they are very close. It just depends on who is playing those characters and who they're playing against.
Shen > Iori but Ash > Shen, seriously Ash is becoming a problem.
I don't think Ash is the problem, it's that we're having to play against John's zoning. I mean at one point you said my Ash was free hahah. It's like me saying Elizabeth is becoming a problem.
