Leona Heidern (Arcade Version)

[omegaryuji]

it seems also that both ver of moon slasher does less damage if the hit lands close to the top rather than close to the ground (if that made any sense). i close with grand sabre D rather than B prior to vslasher because it lifts up the opponent higher which makes it easier to do vslasher. It also gives more time to cancel to neomax.

Yeah, A and C moon slasher have two hitboxes, one for 80 damage close to Leona, one for 60 damage farther away.  EX version seems to just hit for 160 at any range.  Nice point about D grand saber juggling higher.

Also, thanks for those damage values .  Damn, Leona hits like Shen Woo in HD.

[metaphysics]

moves inspired by Gordan Bombay, he should be in the win quotes  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WZ0uRJOatQ

[t3h mAsTarOth...!]

LMAO... hahaha... Leona was in the audience... She's like OH SHIT, i'm copying that for sure...

[PurpGuy]

Leona is definitely going to be my 2nd or 3rd in XIII.  Not sure who my other two mains will be but I'd like to stay away from the K'/Kula/Elizabeth/Shen trend that seems to be going on atm.

Don't have anything contructive to add, other than she's looking very good in XIII.

[omegaryuji]

From ReXXXSoprano, footage of a Japanese tournament:

Leona vs Elizabeth, Kula
Leona vs Raiden
Leona vs Kula

[Kane317]

From ReXXXSoprano, footage of a Japanese tournament:

Leona vs Elizabeth, Kula
Leona vs Raiden
Leona vs Kula

Lol, I'm not so sure they're the best matches to highlight Leona's capabilities.  2 out of your 3 links she loses in those rounds, loses badly too.

[Judge Fudge]

moves inspired by Gordan Bombay, he should be in the win quotes  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WZ0uRJOatQ

Either that, or she should have a Mighty Duck jersey alt.

[omegaryuji]

Lol, I'm not so sure they're the best matches to highlight Leona's capabilities.  2 out of your 3 links she loses in those rounds, loses badly too.

Learning what not to do is as important as learning what to do .

The Raiden match shows too much passiveness in general (especially against someone double-charging dropkicks), poor spacing/timing that resulted in running into a lot of C's, and a failed roll punish at the end.

The 2nd Kula match actually showed some good stuff and the Leona player should've won it easily but for too much missed execution (failed combo after cross-up j.C, failed V-slasher after instant overhead nj.D).

[FataCon]

Realized I never finished up the Leona wiki, so I added more stuff today. Filled in the Gameplay Overview section and added some Gameplay Notes. Everything is based on my experience (which isn't saying much), so if anyone sees something wrong with it or has something useful to add, just let me know and I'll gladly make edits.

[omegaryuji]

A few comments...unfortunately, they are based mostly on experience with Leona in previous years, but I've played her some in XIII as well, so I have a little experience backing up most of this (unless stated otherwise):

For antiair normals, I find s.A, cr.A, and cr.B are also useful, along with s.D (agree that cr.C is awkward since the timing to antiair with it is pretty weird, especially for players who haven't used Leona in the past).

Her air dominance is slightly weaker from past versions since she lacks an airthrow now.

Kind of disagree that her specials are terrible outside of combos.  They aren't the greatest, but they definitely have their uses.  I'm not sure if any other character has 3 special moves (4 with EX) that are frame advantage on block (although that's kind of a misleading statement since those moves are relatively slow on start up).  I like how you said it in the overall cons, "highly situational".

Baltic Launcher is useful at mid to somewhat far range (less so against someone with far-reaching low attacks like Iori's cr.D or DL's f+B), where it's a good obstacle to use against overly-aggressive foes (especially now that the C version isn't total crap).  It's also useful in oki (free chip and frame advantage on block, and most things that aren't blocking should get blown up for a free juggle...just be careful if they have meter).

EX X-calibur is useful in the same way as Mature's or Terry's EX projectiles, trading meter to get a beefy frame advantage.  Even regular X-calibur has some use if your opponent is really twitchy to antiair, though you have better ways of baiting and punishing that.

I do agree that Grand Saber is mostly combo material since it's vulnerable to getting hit out of the start up, although unless it's been changed a lot from past years (haven't played with her enough yet to judge), you can work it into your overall offensive pressure...not something you can fire out as freely as, say, Elizabeth's dp+A, but used well, it is a calculated risk that keeps you in their face with frame advantage (on block) or gives you a free juggle into potentially more pain (on hit).

Disagree with Moonslasher being useful on wake-up.  Only EX version really is.  The normal versions should get stuffed almost every time by competent opponents.

Personally, I think Leona really needs meter to be effective, so I'd never place her first.  That might just be habit from so many years of drawing V's and wishing she had something like EX Moonslasher, though *laughs* .

Also, it might be worth mentioning that charge times are only about 1 second in KOF (since most games seem to use closer to 2 seconds).

[krazykone123]

Disagree with Moonslasher being useful on wake-up.  Only EX version really is.

lol, was Moon Slasher ever considered a good reversal?

Personally, I think Leona really needs meter to be effective, so I'd never place her first.  That might just be habit from so many years of drawing V's and wishing she had something like EX Moonslasher, though *laughs* .

Good Advice here.

[AzureTAG]

I wouldn't mention her having bad zoning since she mainly a rush down character.

Personally, I think Leona really needs meter to be effective, so I'd never place her first.  That might just be habit from so many years of drawing V's and wishing she had something like EX Moonslasher, though *laughs* .

This, In every game (Mainly 98 and 2002) she always was a good placed 2nd or as an anchor. Having meter for V-Slasher = Excellent Air to Air/Punish almost anything

[FataCon]

First off, thanks for your input guys. I'll note some things down and add to the wiki. I should say though, I find it funny that people usually like to point out things about a character after someone has already said something. It's apparent you guys have constructive things to say, yet there hasn't been much discussion in this thread lately. Go figure.

For antiair normals, I find s.A, cr.A, and cr.B are also useful, along with s.D (agree that cr.C is awkward since the timing to antiair with it is pretty weird, especially for players who haven't used Leona in the past).

s.A for hops, sure, but cr.A and cr.B are anti-air normals?

Her air dominance is slightly weaker from past versions since she lacks an airthrow now.

I do miss the air throw, but her j.B and j.D are seriously good still. j.B especially. In my experience, worst case scenario, it'll get you a trade.

It's also useful in oki (free chip and frame advantage on block, and most things that aren't blocking should get blown up for a free juggle...just be careful if they have meter).

This is very, very dangerous. Like you said, the opponent having meter can make things go horribly wrong. I feel like meter builds quite fast in XIII, so your opponent will generally have a least 1 stock most of the time unless they've been blowing it during the rounds. Coupled with the properties EX moves generally have, you're looking to get hurt real bad.

EX X-calibur is useful in the same way as Mature's or Terry's EX projectiles, trading meter to get a beefy frame advantage.  Even regular X-calibur has some use if your opponent is really twitchy to antiair, though you have better ways of baiting and punishing that.

I really honestly wanted to find some use in EX X-calibur, but I have yet to find one. I've tried setups on oki (even in the corner), but, honestly, the recovery on the jump back is just too long. If she dropped down like King after EX Venom Strike, then sure, but as is it feels like a waste of meter, IMO.

do agree that Grand Saber is mostly combo material since it's vulnerable to getting hit out of the start up, although unless it's been changed a lot from past years (haven't played with her enough yet to judge), you can work it into your overall offensive pressure...not something you can fire out as freely as, say, Elizabeth's dp+A, but used well, it is a calculated risk that keeps you in their face with frame advantage (on block) or gives you a free juggle into potentially more pain (on hit).

I used to do it during blockstrings, but learned not to. Leona doesn't really have any good blockstring enders. What that means is after your general blockstring of normals, the opponent knows you have limited options to keep the pressure on. Since all of Leona's moves suffer from noticeable startup, the opponent will just mash you out of whatever you thought would be a good idea to try. Her pressure, generally comes from staggering normals and mixing up throws. An experienced opponent will take advantage of the gaps caused by vulnerable startup frames and you will get punished for it.

Disagree with Moonslasher being useful on wake-up.  Only EX version really is.  The normal versions should get stuffed almost every time by competent opponents.

You'd be surprised. Obviously, you generally wouldn't want to do any kind of reversal on wakeup if the opponent is in proximity for a meaty. It still beats jump-in mixups among other things. I could be just biased since I like to do it and it works for me lol. I do agree that EX Moon Slasher is infinitely better. I'll take the wakeup bit out of the wiki since that is probably just a playstyle preference of mine.

Personally, I think Leona really needs meter to be effective, so I'd never place her first.  That might just be habit from so many years of drawing V's and wishing she had something like EX Moonslasher, though *laughs* .

I feel like she is viable in all spots, but if that's how you guys feel then I can change that in the wiki.

I wouldn't mention her having bad zoning since she mainly a rush down character.

I mentioned it because there are semi-hybrid characters like K'/Andy/Takuma who are excellent at rushdown but can play a decent zoning game with their projectiles. Leona has a projectile and I thought it was worth noting just so people would know that zoning and spacing is not a particularly strong suit for her.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert Leona player, but what I do know is based on experience. I would like, at the very least, to not have the wiki compounded with info based on theory fighting. Previous incarnations may or may not be fully applicable in XIII, so keep that in mind. Anyway, thank you for the constructive posts. It's kind of refreshing to have some actual gameplay talk again lol. I feel like the character threads have been stagnant for a while now

[krazykone123]

I should say though, I find it funny that people usually like to point out things about a character after someone has already said something. It's apparent you guys have constructive things to say, yet there hasn't been much discussion in this thread lately. Go figure.

Yeah, giving (some-what) harsh criticism after the lack discussion lately does seem like a dick move doesn't it? my bad.

Anyway, you guys try one of those crazy Moon/Grand Sabre HD combo loops yet?

[omegaryuji]

First off, thanks for your input guys. I'll note some things down and add to the wiki. I should say though, I find it funny that people usually like to point out things about a character after someone has already said something. It's apparent you guys have constructive things to say, yet there hasn't been much discussion in this thread lately. Go figure.

I didn't want to come out and say much specific to XIII because I have very little experience with this version of Leona so far.  Also, although I had about 6 years of experience maining her in the past (96-2002...the years and the games *laughs* ), I've been away from KOF for about 8 years (and possibly got a little brain-damaged in that time, but that's a whole different story), so I'm a pretty shitty player right now and don't like to throw out my views on things too freely.  Overall, I thought you did a pretty good job of giving a quick overview of what she's like.  Just wanted to offer a few points from someone who used her a ton in the past and has used everything I've mentioned successfully (with the caveat that the vast majority of that success wasn't in XIII).

s.A for hops, sure, but cr.A and cr.B are anti-air normals?

You can use them in the same way as Iori's cr.B anti-air.  DandyJ's tutorial video explains it better than my words.

I do miss the air throw, but her j.B and j.D are seriously good still. j.B especially. In my experience, worst case scenario, it'll get you a trade.

Good points.  I didn't mean to sound like I was saying she's bad air-to-air without the airthrow, but it's something that makes me a bit hesitant of challenging in the air without meter now against certain characters (especially against Mai).

This is very, very dangerous. Like you said, the opponent having meter can make things go horribly wrong. I feel like meter builds quite fast in XIII, so your opponent will generally have a least 1 stock most of the time unless they've been blowing it during the rounds. Coupled with the properties EX moves generally have, you're looking to get hurt real bad.

Yeah, I'll concede that meter seems to build faster in XIII than past games, so oki Baltic Launcher is probably less viable.  However, since people thought Kunio's Elizabeth HD guardcrush string was worth knowing in her thread, I didn't think it'd be too harmful to say that the ball can be a useful oki tool IF your opponent has no meter (of course, you should mix things up, not solely rely on it).

I really honestly wanted to find some use in EX X-calibur, but I have yet to find one. I've tried setups on oki (even in the corner), but, honestly, the recovery on the jump back is just too long. If she dropped down like King after EX Venom Strike, then sure, but as is it feels like a waste of meter, IMO.

I tried it a couple of times and had some success, but that's a small sample size against players of less-than-stellar skill.  It's not the greatest move of its type, but (maybe because I put Leona last so I have some extra meter in the bank with her) I've never felt like it was a complete waste outside of using it accidentally (from a flubbed attempt at EX V-slasher *laughs* ).

I used to do it during blockstrings, but learned not to. Leona doesn't really have any good blockstring enders. What that means is after your general blockstring of normals, the opponent knows you have limited options to keep the pressure on. Since all of Leona's moves suffer from noticeable startup, the opponent will just mash you out of whatever you thought would be a good idea to try. Her pressure, generally comes from staggering normals and mixing up throws. An experienced opponent will take advantage of the gaps caused by vulnerable startup frames and you will get punished for it.

Like I said, it's a calculated risk, not something you can just put out all of the time.  First you train them to not mash with staggered normals, then maybe no more than 5% of the time, preferably even less, cancel into it off of your first or second poke.  Used rarely like that, it's less likely to be punished, especially if you've been landing counterhits into combos because you're turning 19 out of every 20 blockstrings into a frame trap, and getting that close with frame advantage is quite nice.

You'd be surprised. Obviously, you generally wouldn't want to do any kind of reversal on wakeup if the opponent is in proximity for a meaty. It still beats jump-in mixups among other things. I could be just biased since I like to do it and it works for me lol. I do agree that EX Moon Slasher is infinitely better. I'll take the wakeup bit out of the wiki since that is probably just a playstyle preference of mine.

Honestly, if you're able to land normal Moonslasher against oki jump-ins, you're playing against people who're mistiming their jumps.  Non-EX Moonslasher is not a DP.  It has no invulnerability (or at best, extremely limited invincibility).  If it's getting clean hits for you as a psychic move, anything else with the same range/speed would be able to get those hits as well.

I feel like she is viable in all spots, but if that's how you guys feel then I can change that in the wiki.

She's viable without meter, to a degree, but she gains soooooooo much from just a little bit that it's hard for me not to disagree with saying she can work well in the first slot.  V-slasher is just too potent of a threat, her drive cancel combos hurt pretty nicely since she doesn't rely on multi-hit special moves, and she's a member of that 80% 1-meter HD club.

I mentioned it because there are semi-hybrid characters like K'/Andy/Takuma who are excellent at rushdown but can play a decent zoning game with their projectiles. Leona has a projectile and I thought it was worth noting just so people would know that zoning and spacing is not a particularly strong suit for her.

I pretty much agree with you here.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert Leona player, but what I do know is based on experience. I would like, at the very least, to not have the wiki compounded with info based on theory fighting. Previous incarnations may or may not be fully applicable in XIII, so keep that in mind. Anyway, thank you for the constructive posts. It's kind of refreshing to have some actual gameplay talk again lol. I feel like the character threads have been stagnant for a while now

Again, I'm freely saying that I've had very limited time with XIII, so nothing I'm saying should be taken as gospel (unless good players say it is *laughs* ).  Definitely appreciate the effort you put in to do the update to her wiki, I'm just trying to help make it even better (and I'm assuming the others are as well *laughs* ).

And yeah, outside of a few, the character threads are kind of stagnant.  Seems like everyone's waiting for the console ports to come out.

Anyway, you guys try one of those crazy Moon/Grand Sabre HD combo loops yet?

With what little time I've had in practice mode (most of which hasn't even been with Leona since she's the character I'm most comfortable with using in general thanks to past experience), I've tried doing cr.C, Moon, [DC] Grand, Moon (or DM) to give me a decent punish combo.  The Moon->Grand cancel isn't too bad (actually one of the few DCs I've gotten a bit of a handle on *laughs* ), but I was having some trouble landing the next Moon.  Kept tending to do it too late so it wasn't actually juggling.  I think I mostly need to get more familiar with exactly how fast she recovers after landing a Grand and with where the hitbox on Moon shifts to the higher damage version (feel like I'm mostly just getting too greedy for that and delaying the Moon too much).