Author Topic: Tier List  (Read 70001 times)

Matt Alder

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #120 on: January 01, 2012, 03:47:48 AM »
As for Shen, he will always be considered strong. His damage output is just that good, and the main difference between arcade and console is the loss of the guard break on the charge punch. That's about it, not like anyone spammed those overheads with him before. If you look at the arcade version matches you will see that his overall game plan is still valid in the console version. Heck he even got a great buff in the form of the cancellable command grab (which lets him do a really easy and really short 100% combo in the corner using HD and 4 bars).

The fact is that he lost a safe overhead launcher, and he needs it in the console version more than ever now that hitstun on his jump-ins has been drastically reduced. He got nerfed harder than almost anyone with the console changes. His dash-punch cancel is a little faster, but it doesn't give him much. It does help his running EX grab setups a bit, though. He can be grabbed after dash-punch, making him terrible at locking down anyone who has a decent command grab. His grab got slowed down so that he can't even use it on wakeup anymore, meaning he has no defensive options without using meter. The cancellable grab is not really a significant buff at all since you have to be in HD mode before doing it to really combo after it effectively, plus it has a huge startup if you don't use the EX version, which you could combo off of already in the arcade. The cancellable grab is really only meant for a meterless grab->DM option. Using it in HD mode is a bit of a waste since he can already get over 1k damage for 3 meter, but lots of characters can do this. In KOF XIII having big damage is really not all that special, everyone has it. The top tier characters in this game should be characters with lots of solid tools, not just one.

I'm not saying that Shen is bad, but he's not as good as people seem to think right now. I just don't think he has much room to improve from where he is currently, and he has nowhere to go but down. He's one of the simplest characters in the game in terms of what you have to know in order to play him, so people think he's really strong right now. But that's a really bad thing in the long run. I'm just thinking that he'll be mid or high-mid at best eventually, since his only really strong tool now is his EX grab and c.Bx3->HD combo.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 03:57:36 AM by Matt Alder »

Ky0

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #121 on: January 01, 2012, 03:50:07 AM »
Here is mine!

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0

I'm not even sure if i'm reading this right...
hahaaa, lol!  nothing special, just a quick idea of it...
(but yeah, Mature, Raiden, Chin prolly needs little climb... lol, will adjust that later...)



But you are right in the assumption that Joe will probably look a lot better later as more people learn to actually use him. 
Right, thinking the same.

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Diavle

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #122 on: January 01, 2012, 03:57:16 AM »
As for Shen, he will always be considered strong. His damage output is just that good, and the main difference between arcade and console is the loss of the guard break on the charge punch. That's about it, not like anyone spammed those overheads with him before. If you look at the arcade version matches you will see that his overall game plan is still valid in the console version. Heck he even got a great buff in the form of the cancellable command grab (which lets him do a really easy and really short 100% combo in the corner using HD and 4 bars).

The fact is that he lost a safe overhead launcher, and he needs it in the console version more than ever now that hitstun on his jump-ins has been drastically reduced. He got nerfed harder than almost anyone with the console changes. He can also be grabbed after dash-punch now, making him far worse at locking down anyone who has a decent command grab. The cancellable grab is not really a significant buff at all since you have to be in HD mode before doing it to really combo after it effectively, plus it has a huge startup if you don't use the EX version, which you could combo off of already in the arcade. The cancellable grab is really only meant for a meterless grab->DM option. Using it in HD mode is a bit of a waste since he can already get over 1k damage for 3 meter, but lots of characters can do this. In KOF XIII having big damage is really not all that special, everyone has it. The top tier characters in this game should be characters with lots of solid tools, not just one.

Command grab is viable in combos outside of HD. sC, f+B, command grab, super does great damage for little meter.

Its been a while since I've watched arcade matches but I can't remember the command overhead and dash punches being terribly safe. I think you should find Shen matches and study up, his moves weren't spammable in the arcade version. It was all about that j.CD lol. And everyone needs to land deeper to be able to combo after a jump in in the console version, that's one of the changes to the game system from the arcade version.

Matt Alder

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #123 on: January 01, 2012, 04:03:45 AM »
He had frame advantage on his overhead in the arcade. Now he eats a full combo. Also that combo into grab gives him no new tools at all. It's not about damage, it's about tools, and that's what he lacks. Yes he gets high damage from random hits, but he has a VERY hard time actually landing those hits compared to characters with safe rushdown and good pressure tools or strong mixups. Iori gets nearly the same damage that Shen does, but he also gets safe lockdown, a safe overhead that leads to 1k+ damage, way better hitstun on jump-ins, he builds meter more quickly and he has very solid combos from low without using full HD (though he could use HD if he wants to deal 1k damage from a low like Shen). Iori also has a 2 frame EX grab that's invulnerable on the first frame which gives him nearly as damaging a combo as Shen gets. Iori also can get resets off of his qcb+C or his command grab. I just don't think that trading off options for damage is a good idea. We'll see in a year who stays at the top and who gets dropped down once people learn matchups.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 04:05:56 AM by Matt Alder »

LouisCipher

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #124 on: January 01, 2012, 04:04:44 AM »

I wasn't trying to use the Kuroda defense at all.  I was saying, most of us in this thread have absolutely no business talking about a tier list when we'd get destroyed by any really good player using any character.  Lower level players, we probably get beat by characters that are better while requiring a lower level of entry.  We don't really have the experience or the ability necessary in order to properly deduce a tier list.

Like me for example, what right could I possibly have to say I know as much as a Bala or someone on his level?  I haven't played on his level or his level of competition as much, I haven't faced as much variety, I haven't played the game as long, so what point is my opinion compared to someone like him?

True, but by talking about it maybe then we can figure something out and engage the gdlk players to give their 2 cents? All of this shit has to start somewhere, maybe this thread is going somewhere or maybe it isn't? There has to be a spark.
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Diavle

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #125 on: January 01, 2012, 04:07:19 AM »
He had frame advantage on his overhead in the arcade. Now he eats a full combo. Also that combo into grab gives him no new tools at all. It's not about damage, it's about tools, and that's what he lacks. Yes he gets high damage from random hits, but he has a VERY hard time actually landing those hits compared to characters with safe rushdown and good pressure tools or strong mixups. Iori gets nearly the same damage that Shen does, but he also gets safe lockdown, a safe overhead that leads to 1k+ damage, way better hitstun on jump-ins, he builds meter more quickly and he has very solid combos from low without using full HD (though he could use HD if he wants to deal 1k damage from a low like Shen). Iori also has a 2 frame EX grab that's invulnerable on the first frame which gives him nearly as damaging a combo as Shen gets.

Kyo is one of the most solid characters in the game, going by what we've seen so far, yet each and every one of his moves is unsafe on block aside from the fireball (if used in a block string). So what?

Matt Alder

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #126 on: January 01, 2012, 06:38:28 AM »
Aaaaaaand the only thing that Shen has over Kyo is higher damage off his command grab. Kyo wins in every other aspect by a mile. Like I said, -one- good tool does not make a high tier character. Kyo has an invulnerable shoryu, a fireball for safe lockdown, way stronger jump-ins, a better overhead, way better options from a low, just as much damage during HD mode and builds meter way faster. He also has a command grab if he needs it, he just doesn't get as much from it.

The biggest thing of all is that he has all of these options (save for the grab) when he's got no meter. Put Shen into a match with no meter and his damage is suddenly negligible, his defensive options are 0 and he doesn't build meter particularly quickly. Yes, I know he's an anchor, but what if he has to take out more than one character?

And not every character got hit the same amount in terms of the nerfs to hitstun from jump-ins. Shen has probably some of the very worst hitstun from his jump-ins. It makes hyperhops very risky compared to many other characters. Only j.CD has solid blockstun now.

Though I admit I have forgotten one of Shen's best tools. When he has 2 stock, nobody ever dares to jump in on him or do anything that telegraphs even a little bit, because his EXDM is 2 frames and causes wallbounce. This is a devastating tool, but again, requires lots of meter.

Shen is solid with meter, yes, but he's not always going to have meter. The top 10 characters will end up being ones that are strong with meter, but are also strong without it.

I would have to say that I mostly agree with Ky0's tier list, aside from the shockingly low placement of Goro and Chin. I also would think that Mature is around low-mid... not quite the worst pick in the game. Though I can understand rating her low. Chin and Goro, though?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 07:08:09 AM by Matt Alder »

Diavle

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #127 on: January 01, 2012, 07:09:11 AM »
Did I say he was better than Kyo? No. You were complaining about lack of unsafe spammable moves and I showed you its not necessary.

Bad defense is the point of Shen, ever since he was introduced in 2003. You're either attacking or finished. If you want invincible DPs and fireballs then you are playing the wrong character. Just switch.

EDIT: And what is this about bad jump in hit stun? I'm not very good at comboing from jumpins in this game yet but I just took him to practice and was able to combo jC into sC and jA into sC like 7 times in a row.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 07:18:29 AM by Diavle »

Matt Alder

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #128 on: January 01, 2012, 07:28:08 AM »
Did I say he was better than Kyo? No. You were complaining about lack of unsafe spammable moves and I showed you its not necessary.

Bad defense is the point of Shen, ever since he was introduced in 2003. You're either attacking or finished. If you want invincible DPs and fireballs then you are playing the wrong character. Just switch.

EDIT: And what is this about bad jump in hit stun? I'm not very good at comboing from jumpins in this game yet but I just took him to practice and was able to combo jC into sC and jA into sC like 7 times in a row.



My issue is that he's not really on the same level as Kyo at all, yet many tier lists have him close.

As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters. And yes, I'm saying that because Shen has poor defensive tools, he's not high tier. I'm certain that he'll end up being considered middle by most people eventually. Right now most of the tier lists I've seen have him at like... A Tier, or within top 5~10 characters. I'm not saying he's bad, just that he's average. He has strengths and weaknesses. But also when he lost a fairly large portion of his offensive capabilities in the console nerfs it hurt him quite a bit. Many of the characters got substantial buffs. He's really easy and fun to play, so he's popular, and people are doing well right now, but once the matchup is well known, he'll certainly drop. He also suffers greatly from some poor matchups vs characters with strong normals to beat his own, and grapplers.

Diavle

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #129 on: January 01, 2012, 07:58:24 AM »
Just out of curiosity, how high would you place Shen in the arcade version?

JennyCage

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #130 on: January 01, 2012, 11:31:24 AM »
As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters.

Air D->stand C is a really easy link on Shen, doesn't need to be that deep at all.

I think it's too early to speculate on tiers but I think Robert is going to be up there when all the dust settles.  Command grab, non-directional command crossup, can jump off walls, two speeds of fireballs, dp, dive kick, gen'eikyaku and hien shippuukyaku, two command normals that link into each other and decent normals in general.  He might not have the best dp or the best fireball, but the sheer multitude of options he has available is pretty crazy.  He's easily the most well rounded character in the game.  I recommend him to everyone who's new because he's so good and versatile.

I also think King is pretty high tier.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 11:51:32 AM by JennyCage »
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Nagare_Ryouma

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #131 on: January 01, 2012, 04:30:42 PM »
Kyo is one of the most solid characters in the game, going by what we've seen so far, yet each and every one of his moves is unsafe on block aside from the fireball (if used in a block string). So what?

That is the problem nowadays. It is usefull to make a technical analisys of the frames and stuff like that, but that is not the final word on how a character works.
It's like reading a book about basketball and playing it.
I read many people arguing stuff like "this movement is no safe on block, he is low tier", your example of Kyo proves that's full of shit.
I guess every DP and Flashkick (no matter wich) are bullshit because they are not safe on block, right?
In a fighting game you need to understand exactly how attacks work, WHEN to use them and how, distance is also a key factor for certain attacks, as well as timming.
Terry low tier, ha ha, some people just don´t have a clue about how to play this game.
Jenny, you are right, Robert is also extrematelly solid, but since you don´t see an easy HD loop or something that looks like Raiden's arcade DK people just think he is trash. Again, they don´t know how to play the game, I still remember everyone been afraid of EX Iori being broken, ha ha.
Leona is another character that I never saw too many matches, but I always though in this game she can be very dangerous in the right hands. She will have some tough match ups wich will really imply using her in totally different ways but still, I would like to see how she develops in a couple of months.

powerfercs

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #132 on: January 01, 2012, 05:55:45 PM »
This tier list maker is really impressive basically we can put the characters in Quadrants each quadrant will represent a rank.

Quadrant 1-Top Right or S Rank
Quadrant 2 -Top Left or A Rank
Quadrant 3- Bottom Right or B Rank
Quadrant 4- Bottom Left or C Rank

Post some hypothetical list and we will discuss a character which may have different positions in each list I'll try to post my own and try to see where you would rank a specific character.

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trh02am5256h4k8g4mgte96i2skxeej6g460d6n0eliz49h0c6aa4mmkcngw48a4b9kjadkscia52uifaiirc7chbdgufzizea84b8mqagc84rdo2x63b8kd27lbgdgfad892tbu2vim2900j6-bk6-napowefercs
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 06:14:13 PM by powerfercs »

powerfercs

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #133 on: January 01, 2012, 06:11:30 PM »
As of now most of us agree that EX Iori and Normal Kyo is pretty much top tier. With EX Iori having incredible damage setup from meterless combos from his rekkas, his OTGs and his command grabs (the EX Kototsuki In and Scum Gale) give lots of reset, and OTG opportunies. Normal Kyo has a lot of tools in his disposal that even with the loss of his safe Kotutsuki You he still is strong with impressive normals, hit confirms and strong metered or meterless combos at his disposal. HD well all characters are beasts with HD. BUT Tier lists are not set in stone and seeing these two are the most popular characters the matchup will be very familiar. Sorry for wall of text but I have a feeling that Claw Iori might go lower he seems to be one dimensional. That's just me and I main Claw Iori with Fireball Kyo and Yuri.


Matt Alder

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Re: Tier List
« Reply #134 on: January 01, 2012, 06:11:55 PM »
As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters.

Air D->stand C is a really easy link on Shen, doesn't need to be that deep at all.

I think it's too early to speculate on tiers but I think Robert is going to be up there when all the dust settles.  Command grab, non-directional command crossup, can jump off walls, two speeds of fireballs, dp, dive kick, gen'eikyaku and hien shippuukyaku, two command normals that link into each other and decent normals in general.  He might not have the best dp or the best fireball, but the sheer multitude of options he has available is pretty crazy.  He's easily the most well rounded character in the game.  I recommend him to everyone who's new because he's so good and versatile.

I also think King is pretty high tier.

I can agree that Robert is fairly underappreciated right now. His tools are really varied, he just lacks damage. If people figured out some great new ways to deal damage with him... he could easily rise to the top. I don't think that'll happen really, but I still think there's no way that a character with so many options can be bad.

And as for Shen in the arcade, I would put him probably in the top 10, but not the top 5. He's gotten fairly hard nerfs from the arcade version, and most of the rest of the cast got substantial buffs. Now I would put him in the top 15, but not the top 10.