Author Topic: Elisabeth wiki building thread  (Read 15764 times)

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 06:56:55 PM »
-Additional combos added
-Removed less optimized combos
-Updated damage calculations for some combos
-Added match up notes for vs Ryo

karn

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2013, 12:45:58 AM »
[DC Wiki Quote Start]
Mistral or EX Mistral if the opponent does a tech roll they will get grabbed.
The above mix up will only work if your opponent does a tech roll after the first dp+A. Normally, recovering from a knockdown gives you a few frames of throw invulnerability; however, there are no throw invulnerability frames after a tech roll. This set up utilizes this information for an instant grab.
[DC Wiki Quote End]

I'm presuming this is against a cornered opponent.

Although the above setup is likely to score Elisabeth a Mistral or EX Mistral, there are some ways out. The main reason for this that characters still have 1 frame of throw invincibility on wakeup after tech rolling. Although it's obviously dangerous for the tech rolling player, the 1 frame gives the player enough time to wake up with a reversal that is throw-invincible or airborne upon activation. They can also hold up on wakeup to be airborne immediately and punish the whiffed command grab on the way down with a full combo.

After Elisabeth's opponent tech rolls, the Elisabeth player actually has to consider several scenarios that beat her Mistral and EX Mistral:
1.If you expect your opponent to use an unsafe physical wakeup, block to bait it(you could also backdash to make it an option select that beats wakeup throw too)
2.If you expect your opponent to use a wakeup invincible command grab, walk backwards out of range, backdash, or hop.
3.If you expect your opponent to jump on wakeup, you can (step back a bit if you want and) use Etincelle (any version) to start an anti-jump-escape combo;
a) Etincelle(EX), Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA, dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
b) Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
c) Etincelle(A), [dpA, dpA, j.C] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]

Notes:
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(EX) allows only one Etincelle(C) followup.
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(C) allows no additional Etincelle(C) followup.
To keep things simple, you can leave out one of the followup Etincelle(C)'s for combos a) and b) based on reacting to how your first Etincelle connects.

To recap, although an opponent tech rolling makes them more vulnerable to throws, the throw isn't guaranteed, so doing a raw command grab is still generally risky.
The anti-tech roll setup is only better because they have less time to react to the throw and that they can't mash cr.B or cl.C on wakeup since they don't get up with throw invincibility.
Your opponent's options *are* more limited after tech rolling though so you can enjoy increased pressure for a few moments.
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karn

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2013, 03:20:15 AM »
The Liz wiki is way more detailed than the other ones I've read so far so great job!

Submitting a Liz combo:

[4 Stock HD 50% screen] (opponent dead center or anywhere closer to the wall behind them)
hop C, cl.C [HD] cl.C-dp.C [HDC] qcf.A, dp.A [HDC] qcf.C, qcf.C, dp.A [HDC] qcf.C, qcf.C, dp.A [HDC] qcf.C, qcf.C, qcfx2.AC [MC] qcbqcf.BD
(1000 damage)

Notes:
1) I wasn't able to get far C to come out instead of close C after HD activation but it doesn't matter since it does 1000 damage.
2) To get the full 50% screen carry, make use of the HD Activation slide (don't hit C too early right after HD Activation), otherwise it's more like 40-45% screen carry.
3) You don't need to do any late HD Cancels from dp.A to get 2-hit qcf.C; it's actually better if you don't because more than one late HDC to get the 2-hit qcf.C will delay the combo enough to make you run out of meter by the time you get to the Max Cancel.
4) It took a while for me to get comfortable with confirming to HD without using Elisabeth's forward+B, but hop C, C is perfectly fine as a two-hit confirm.
5) Using forward+B before HD Activation adds a bit of scaling but odds are you won't be hitting your opponent from perfectly full life anyway and the confirm becomes way easier (the combo does 998 damage instead)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:55:13 AM by karn »
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Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2013, 07:15:29 PM »
[DC Wiki Quote Start]
Mistral or EX Mistral if the opponent does a tech roll they will get grabbed.
The above mix up will only work if your opponent does a tech roll after the first dp+A. Normally, recovering from a knockdown gives you a few frames of throw invulnerability; however, there are no throw invulnerability frames after a tech roll. This set up utilizes this information for an instant grab.
[DC Wiki Quote End]

I'm presuming this is against a cornered opponent.

Although the above setup is likely to score Elisabeth a Mistral or EX Mistral, there are some ways out. The main reason for this that characters still have 1 frame of throw invincibility on wakeup after tech rolling. Although it's obviously dangerous for the tech rolling player, the 1 frame gives the player enough time to wake up with a reversal that is throw-invincible or airborne upon activation. They can also hold up on wakeup to be airborne immediately and punish the whiffed command grab on the way down with a full combo.

After Elisabeth's opponent tech rolls, the Elisabeth player actually has to consider several scenarios that beat her Mistral and EX Mistral:
1.If you expect your opponent to use an unsafe physical wakeup, block to bait it(you could also backdash to make it an option select that beats wakeup throw too)
2.If you expect your opponent to use a wakeup invincible command grab, walk backwards out of range, backdash, or hop.
3.If you expect your opponent to jump on wakeup, you can (step back a bit if you want and) use Etincelle (any version) to start an anti-jump-escape combo;
a) Etincelle(EX), Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA, dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
b) Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
c) Etincelle(A), [dpA, dpA, j.C] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]

Notes:
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(EX) allows only one Etincelle(C) followup.
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(C) allows no additional Etincelle(C) followup.
To keep things simple, you can leave out one of the followup Etincelle(C)'s for combos a) and b) based on reacting to how your first Etincelle connects.

To recap, although an opponent tech rolling makes them more vulnerable to throws, the throw isn't guaranteed, so doing a raw command grab is still generally risky.
The anti-tech roll setup is only better because they have less time to react to the throw and that they can't mash cr.B or cl.C on wakeup since they don't get up with throw invincibility.
Your opponent's options *are* more limited after tech rolling though so you can enjoy increased pressure for a few moments.

Thanks for the information. I've update the wiki with some of the information you provided but omitted the Etincelle combos as I don't want to clutter the mix up sections with combos. I'll have to do some experimentation with the tech roll throw invulnerability and compare them with other command grab based characters. There's probably an option select in this setup somewhere.

I've added your HD combo to the wiki as well.

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2013, 05:28:37 AM »
* Added a bunch of match up information on Duo Lon and Billy Kane.
* Added information on Noble Blanche and Grand Rafale DM's.
* Added counter hit information to A Etincelle and A Coup De Vent
* Added additional safe jump setups and linked to the video
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:14:04 PM by Killey »

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 09:49:05 AM »
* Added additional information to jump C, crouch B, and far stand D
* Added match up information vs Benimaru and Kensou

Amedø310

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 09:57:48 PM »
Added the following to the Tips Section:

"Frame Traps

1. st. A, cl. C

2. cr. A, cl. C

3. st. B, st. A

4. st. B, cr. A

5. st. B, cl. C

6. st. B, cr. B

7. cr. B, cl. C"

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2013, 09:44:21 PM »
-Reorganized combo listings based on midscreen, corner, and counter hit rather than no drive and drive cancel.
-Reorganized cross ups, safe jumps, and command grab mind games under tips rather than their own section.

desmond_kof

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »
Good job. I caught something that needs to be changed:

"I stress the importance of not being afraid to spend meter with Elisabeth because it takes one combo and one mix up for her to kill a character so she's fully capable at making those clutch comebacks."

No first-person references without a editors note.
"Do not place so much importance on winning. The fight itself has value."

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2013, 07:51:02 PM »
- Revised some of the information.
- Changed some of the combo notation so it's along the lines with the other character wikis.

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2013, 10:26:03 PM »
-Revised combo notation
-Added some combos
-Added info on the Clark match up

Killey

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 07:41:30 PM »
-Added new safe jump and cross up setups based on this video KOF XIII // Elisabeth Safe Jumps, Set Up and HD Combo Video
-Revised some match up information on King and Kim

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Re: Elisabeth wiki building thread
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2013, 10:08:24 PM »
Brief update on Elisabeth's HD combo section.
Added a two bar HD combo.