Author Topic: Chin Gentsai (Arcade Version)  (Read 18192 times)

Reiki.Kito

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2011, 08:31:29 AM »
Are there any holes or breaks in some of his combos where he can be interrupted or punished? One of my friends has picked him up and I can't seem to find ways to get in on him. Especially that quick overhead, can he keep attacking after that's blocked, is it safe?

Just any general knowledge on what approach I should take would be nice.

SAB-CA

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2011, 09:47:13 AM »
A general cut-and-paste of a Reply I gave to a person claiming Chin was OP, after watching Kane decimate with him on last week's stream:

Quote
He's also throwable + punchable out of his overhead, and his drinks drop his defense too, making each of his risk magnified. His roll approach is very obvious after a while (and can be eaten by crouching weak attacks), and his hops aren't the best. He use to have a 2 hit hopping C to help him get back to the ground after a hop attack, but that's also gone now...

Plus crappy normals reach, and he doesn't benefit off HD as easily, since he doesn't have easy ways to land normals. (Drive Cancels kinda balance this, of course.)

Lets add on the fact that ground-crawling fireballs also totally ruin his roll punch to that list :(

Chin gets much less threatening after people get used to him. This is why Kane has a problem placing among his peers, of whenever he's fighting people who know him; Chin lacks in the things that make a character really OP, he just works great with meter (which almost everyone does anyway...). Basically, he's a very strong mid-level character, that loses more steam as the players get more knowledgeable.

Oh, and lastly, Chin's not doing anything greater in XIII than he has in the past anywho, lol. It's never made him OP in the past, it's not going to now...

^ This wass all in response to a "I'm Glad that Kane lost!" post, lol. Let me know if you disagree with any of it as well, Kane.

Some places were'd he'd have holes:

- after the quickie punches -> followup (depending on followup)
- after roll -> Move followup
- after a wiffed counter

I'd say the best way to pierce a Chin's defense, is to know what he likes to Over-depend on, and then figure out ways to stifle that approach. If he like to roll -> Suiho, bait and punish. If he likes to hop and jump alot, learn his jump arch, and keep him grounded. If he relies on counters, learn to bait them, and punish with big combos afterwards.

If Chin starts to control the flow of the match, it's kinda over. But he responds poorly to pressure, so if you can get and keep it, his threat is seriously diminished :(
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 10:44:33 AM by SAB-CA »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2011, 09:57:15 AM »
SAB-CA, who posted that?  That guy got it mostly right.

The challenge with Chin is there's no real "correct" way to play him (well there isn't with anyone but you get my point); he's more a stone-paper-scissors kinda guy, much like grapplers if you will.  The challenge I always have is trying to remember which strategy I need to use (stone-paper or scissors) on the opponent and can I switch it up fast enough.

Having said that, playing the people I play the most is a pain since they've seen most of attack patterns so I really have to switch it up.  Case and point:  I beat metaphysics in the Evo arcade tourney and he ends up beating me in the tie-breaker for the console tourney the very next day.

Some places were'd he'd have holes:

- after the quickie punches


Well technically it's before the quickie punches after the overhead.  The QP itself can be free-cancelled into any special so it in itself is not unsafe.  Like Kula's follow ups to her Lay Spin (qcb+K) you can hit him before it comes out, heck you can roll it without using a stock for GCCD.  You can refer to this post here where I go over a lot of Chin's weaknesses.

Reiki, who picked up Chin?

SAB-CA, can I get the link to the post in question, I wanna read all the Chin317 hate ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 10:04:42 AM by Kane317 »

SAB-CA

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2011, 10:43:12 AM »
LoL, I put that in a confusing way. I should have said "A cut and paste of my reply, to a person who claimed Chin was OP". LoL, so they're my words. This is what I get for posting when sleepy, lol.

The post is down on this page of Gaf's KoF Thread, at post #2192: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=439047&page=44

Cadet Mahooney said something about it the day before, during the ranbats (in a seperate thread then, too), and I was surprised he took the "Glad Kane lost, die Chin!" attitude on for more than that, right back into the official thread, lol.

Reiki.Kito

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2011, 10:06:36 PM »
Reiki, who picked up Chin?

Fixel -_- I had no idea what he was doing until he did it and then I was completely caught off-guard. He does that; he's REALLY good at technical knowledge and abusing the crap out of it.

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2011, 10:55:52 PM »
Reiki, who picked up Chin?

Fixel -_- I had no idea what he was doing until he did it and then I was completely caught off-guard. He does that; he's REALLY good at technical knowledge and abusing the crap out of it.

Just as I suspected.  Yeah he does have quite of bit of technical knowledge so we'll see how it goes.  Keep me updated with his progress.

bigvador

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2011, 03:34:58 AM »
kane i do have to ask do you think because chin is short he has a advantage as well as a disadvantage as in terms of him being short cause when i play against him i be missin alot of hits because hes short (or maybe my timing is off)

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2011, 12:22:00 PM »
kane i do have to ask do you think because chin is short he has a advantage as well as a disadvantage as in terms of him being short cause when i play against him i be missin alot of hits because hes short (or maybe my timing is off)

It doesn't seem to be as much advantageous as it was in XII.  His hitboxes have been adjusted (e.g. Robert's f+A would miss Chin in XII but not in XIII).  So technically you'd have to ask all the ppl that play me as I don't play that many Chins, but I feel IMO, that he has all the disadvantageous but not that many advantages for being short.

bigvador

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2011, 04:18:17 AM »
kane i do have to ask do you think because chin is short he has a advantage as well as a disadvantage as in terms of him being short cause when i play against him i be missin alot of hits because hes short (or maybe my timing is off)

It doesn't seem to be as much advantageous as it was in XII.  His hitboxes have been adjusted (e.g. Robert's f+A would miss Chin in XII but not in XIII).  So technically you'd have to ask all the ppl that play me as I don't play that many Chins, but I feel IMO, that he has all the disadvantageous but not that many advantages for being short.

yea but the disadvantages he has...... dont he make up for it in his hitboxs and distance (ex hop kick roll punch ect) he do have alot of good normals. not trying to throw any of your secrets out btw  :)

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2011, 06:24:00 AM »
First page has been updated with console changes.

---

- (shown in video) Chin can do a close C from his d,d+K stance
- (shown in video) The weak version of his counter now has the attack come out faster than before and can connect into his rolling attack (HCF+K). As a result of this the counterattack almost never whiffs anymore, and there are very few situations in which he canít follow up.
- (shown in video) He has less lag after his normal throw (both when in his stances as well as normally) and he can actually do followups in the corner.
- Chinís defense no longer decreases when he has drink stocks
- The active time of his counters has been decreased. The normal version now has the active duration of the arcadeís EX version, and the EX versionís is shorter still.
- His EX counter does less damage, reduced from 237 to 199.

Yamamoto Ė We added some interesting buffs to gameplay using d,d+K. Although parry time on hk+LK {Ex qcb+BD} has been reduced, the overall frames are shorter making it difficult to get punished. Drinking is easier to use compared to the arcade now that there is no defense penalty. Please have fun with the now trickier Chin

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2011, 05:37:05 PM »
Practiced him last night and took him online today morning, old am definitely gold.

I'm a huge Drunken Master fan (have probably re-watched the movies a billion times) but I always felt Chin wasn't a good enough representation of the style, until this re-imagining that is. The moves and animation are so spot on, you can see they payed close attention to the movies with the way he moves and poses.

With that out of the way, his gameplay is very unique and fresh I feel. The commands and styles are very cool, and the juggle potential is of course crazy. Though I am more interested in learning everything outside of the combos.

Been experimenting during matches with the ducking move into throw and so far so good. I was able to duck and go straight into throw through jump ins consistently. One Terry player ran up for a sC on wakeup and I was able to duck and throw that clean as well.

You can see players who have played KOF before because they immediately started mashing cB against Chin... ugh. Gonna try and incorporate the D counter special to break this habit of theirs. Planning to use counters quite a bit overall.

His combos are so satisfying to do. What is his best meter-less punish mid screen? In the corner?

Any general survival tips would be very appreciated.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:45:04 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2011, 01:36:14 AM »
I'm a huge Drunken Master fan (have probably re-watched the movies a billion times) but I always felt Chin wasn't a good enough representation of the style, until this re-imagining that is. The moves and animation are so spot on, you can see they payed close attention to the movies with the way he moves and poses.

With that out of the way, his gameplay is very unique and fresh I feel. The commands and styles are very cool, and the juggle potential is of course crazy. Though I am more interested in learning everything outside of the combos.

Coming from HK and growing up on Jackie Chan, I agree, they nailed the drunken style down to the T.

Been experimenting during matches with the ducking move into throw and so far so good. I was able to duck and go straight into throw through jump ins consistently. One Terry player ran up for a sC on wakeup and I was able to duck and throw that clean as well.

That move is so dirty, he can duck most d.As!  Couple that with his ability to combo after his throw in the corner it's so...urm...dirty!

You can see players who have played KOF before because they immediately started mashing cB against Chin... ugh.

That's when you do his Ex hcf K or his overhead =)

Gonna try and incorporate the D counter special to break this habit of theirs. Planning to use counters quite a bit overall.

His D counter is his old B counter now, both counters have such small windows (the duration of his Ex counter in the arcade, and his Ex counter now is even shorter almost completely useless, almost).  Problem with his D counter is that it's used to counter low hitting normals and since he walks backwards it's hard to counter successfully.  His B counter is so hard to time the hcf+B follow up, you're better off to cancel into df.B (whiff), df.B.

His combos are so satisfying to do. What is his best meter-less punish mid screen? In the corner?

Any general survival tips would be very appreciated.

Hmm where do I begin (see pages from before).  If you mean meterless as stocks and drive, then it would be:
-s.C, df.B, qcb+A, drink (optional)
-s.C, df.B, s.C for slightly more damage and reset
-d.B, Quickie Punch, kick stance~C (s.C), df.B, qcb+A/s.C  <--harder

Regarding survival tips, what are your main challenges right now?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 01:52:22 AM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2011, 04:01:07 PM »
Going through your wiki entry for the character and wow, good job.

That move is so dirty, he can duck most d.As!  Couple that with his ability to combo after his throw in the corner it's so...urm...dirty!

I didn't realize you could combo of the throw until I saw you on stream on Saturday, mind was blown.

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That's when you do his Ex hcf K or his overhead =)

The EX hcf+K has invincibility? How much?

I tried the overhead but it gets beat by sweeps (1 guy was doing c.Bs and then sweep when I would overhead, another would dp). Will hope for less smart opponents.

Quote
His D counter is his old B counter now, both counters have such small windows (the duration of his Ex counter in the arcade, and his Ex counter now is even shorter almost completely useless, almost).  Problem with his D counter is that it's used to counter low hitting normals and since he walks backwards it's hard to counter successfully.  His B counter is so hard to time the hcf+B follow up, you're better off to cancel into df.B (whiff), df.B.

Didn't realize you could cancel his B counter attack on hit, nice. B counter has actually been really good to me, as both an anti-air and countering special moves mid screen. The window to counter doesn't seem much different from Rock Howard's, unlike Rock though he moves back so harder to punish (Rock just stands there on whiff).

Quote
Hmm where do I begin (see pages from before).  If you mean meterless as stocks and drive, then it would be:
-s.C, df.B, qcb+A, drink (optional)
-s.C, df.B, s.C for slightly more damage and reset
-d.B, Quickie Punch, kick stance~C (s.C), df.B, qcb+A/s.C  <--harder

Regarding survival tips, what are your main challenges right now?


Thanks for those, was using more basic ones.

My main challenge is applying pressure and high low games. What are good/safe block strings for him? One I've been using is cB, sA, sA into qcb+A. High is fine because of the overhead but I don't feel dangerous going low, which is why I found the above chain, haven't put it to use online yet though.

EDIT: Okay, the wiki answered all of my questions for survival pretty much, thanks man.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 05:12:30 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2011, 10:25:42 PM »
The EX hcf+K has invincibility? How much?

Full invincibility during the roll, however, no start up invincibility whatsoever.

I tried the overhead but it gets beat by sweeps (1 guy was doing c.Bs and then sweep when I would overhead, another would dp). Will hope for less smart opponents.

You're not spacing your overhead correctly, it'll be the majority of sweeps unless it's Andy's or something bulky like that.  It will be d.Bs for sure.

Didn't realize you could cancel his B counter attack on hit, nice. B counter has actually been really good to me, as both an anti-air and countering special moves mid screen. The window to counter doesn't seem much different from Rock Howard's, unlike Rock though he moves back so harder to punish (Rock just stands there on whiff).

In the console it's very situational how the B counter reacts, safest bet is to (corner) df.B~B, qcb+A --> continue.  If you try to add the hcf B after the B counter, you have to delay (quite a bit) and that also depends on the height and when you countered the attack.  Sadly, sometimes a delay hcf B is the only option.

---

On a side note, I found out something new with him.  In the arcade, if you land his rolling hit (hcf K) directly underneath the opponent, you wouldn't be able to special cancel into say his df.B (which a lot of time to the untrained eye, looks like you dropped a combo).  Try doing hcf D, df.BD, hcf B into df.B--the df.B won't come out.

In the console, they seem to have "fixed" this problem, but you have to cancel the special in the opposite direction as you're considered crossed up .  Now try doing hcf D, df.BD, hcf B into db.B I haven't found any practical uses yet but we're see.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 10:43:43 PM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2011, 05:11:17 AM »
Full invincibility during the roll, however, no start up invincibility whatsoever.

You're not spacing your overhead correctly, it'll be the majority of sweeps unless it's Andy's or something bulky like that.  It will be d.Bs for sure.

In the console it's very situational how the B counter reacts, safest bet is to (corner) df.B~B, qcb+A --> continue.  If you try to add the hcf B after the B counter, you have to delay (quite a bit) and that also depends on the height and when you countered the attack.  Sadly, sometimes a delay hcf B is the only option.

Came home after reading your tips and wiki and immediately did better online.

That HCF+BD invincibility came in real useful. I also used QCB+AC as a get off me move and that worked rather nicely as well (has invincibility as well according to that SNK tech vid).

Yeah that guy was using Terry and his sweep is angled upwards as well so it got me a lot. you are right though I often do the overhead maybe a little to close to the opponent, will try to space better.

Did some ducking on ppl's wakeup and that was fun. Ducked under Maxima's Vapor Cannon and into the throw. Also ducked under Terry's cr. A. I'm really enjoying this ducking mechanic overall.