Joe Higashi (Console)

[raisedbyfinches]

Some video of me playing terribly just for the hell of it (I live away from other people so haven't been able to play real people in about 2 months). I drop pretty much every combo ever, don't hit confirm step kick, and cannot deal with Athena's jump arc. Oh, and I've not picked Shen before this. But you're not watching for him

http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338006418
http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338069990

[The Fluke]

I skipped through to see your Joe and he seems fine to me though you didn't seem to manage any combo's in the video. I noticed two things about your fwd.B usage; 1.You seem to missjudge distance and thus whiff it from time to time 2.You sometimes fail to follow up. that's life, but the latter especially is really a big nono if you aim to be competitive with him. You seem to play him more cautiously than i do btw and i respect that.

[raisedbyfinches]

Both of those are unfortunately due to lack of practice
At least its not just me that noticed, the second video should be me for the first 10 matches. Thanks for taking the time to watch. Need to get a lot more games in to get back to playing at the right speed - here's hoping I can sort something out to do that.

[Diavle]

Been putting lots more time into Joe and the more I play the more I feel that putting him on point (which is what most seem to do with him) is not the right approach when you consider how efficient he is with meter and his damage output. Switching him to the second position, personally.

[raisedbyfinches]

He loses a lot more when his opponent has meter. That's all I'm gonna chip in on that.

So long as you're picking him its all good.

[Diavle]

What is it exactly that he loses that can outweigh the damage and options (both defensive and offensive) he gains with meter?

[The Fluke]

I think joe is fine either as first or second. Third makes little sense to me because at that point he gets nothing that he wouldn't already have had at second.

If you put him first you lack anti airs but have a solid basic game outside of that with frametraps and safejumps off of your bnb's etc and high damage in the corner.

If you put him second you should be able to get a stun combo off one way or another if you just get your opponent somewhere near the corner, and that could go as far as you want to/can afford to take it. EX tiger kick is also in my opinion one of the best standalone moves in the game as it easily punishes just about anything on the ground, including fireballs wich is allways fun and deals good damage while doing so. EX hurricane upper is also a nice tool to have at hand although i find that it's main use is to tell zoning happy players that they should rethink their strategy (hopefully they don't realize that there's only so much meter).

So basically play joe first; glass cannon, if he wins the first round he should hopefully have the meter to do what he could be able to during the second round, making knocking out a second character and then hopefully the third far more likely.

Play joe second; preserve the glass cannon so that any hit it causes could be devastating.

Either way is fine with me, though for third slot i prefer a character that is more solid.

I find that joe often gives me ocvs, though i do not believe it's because i am great with him nor that he himself is that great but rather that joe is based around pressure, and if the opponent caves in and starts getting hit, chances are the rest of his/her game will crumble and joe will cause some serious damage before the opponent calms down. Playing joe aggressively like i prefer to do naturally means taking risks with him so it makes sense for me to play him first so that i have a chance to pick the game up again if he fails.

When i say that joe often gives me ocvs, it's relative to my other characters.

[Diavle]

I think joe is fine either as first or second. Third makes little sense to me because at that point he gets nothing that he wouldn't already have had at second.

If you put him first you lack anti airs but have a solid basic game outside of that with frametraps and safejumps off of your bnb's etc and high damage in the corner.

If you put him second you should be able to get a stun combo off one way or another if you just get your opponent somewhere near the corner, and that could go as far as you want to/can afford to take it. EX tiger kick is also in my opinion one of the best standalone moves in the game as it easily punishes just about anything on the ground, including fireballs wich is allways fun and deals good damage while doing so. EX hurricane upper is also a nice tool to have at hand although i find that it's main use is to tell zoning happy players that they should rethink their strategy (hopefully they don't realize that there's only so much meter).

So basically play joe first; glass cannon, if he wins the first round he should hopefully have the meter to do what he could be able to during the second round, making knocking out a second character and then hopefully the third far more likely.

Play joe second; preserve the glass cannon so that any hit it causes could be devastating.

Either way is fine with me, though for third slot i prefer a character that is more solid.

I find that joe often gives me ocvs, though i do not believe it's because i am great with him nor that he himself is that great but rather that joe is based around pressure, and if the opponent caves in and starts getting hit, chances are the rest of his/her game will crumble and joe will cause some serious damage before the opponent calms down. Playing joe aggressively like i prefer to do naturally means taking risks with him so it makes sense for me to play him first so that i have a chance to pick the game up again if he fails.

When i say that joe often gives me ocvs, it's relative to my other characters.

Therein lies the problem I think, ppl are so tempted by his stun combo that it seems like that's all they use drive meter for with him. He can do so much more with drive and meter than just the stun combo and EX moves. Aside from being damn good with HD and drive cancel combos he is also one of the few characters in the game imo that can really capitalize off of raw drive cancels and raw super cancels, turning seemingly random or usually unfruitful situations into big damage.

I agree on the ocv thing, there is just something about him that throws the opponent off. Once he gets going its not easy to stop him, his play style I think isn't easy to pin down because he can easily vary between all out offence, turtling and hit and run. I'll play people that give my entire team trouble but out of nowhere Joe will start scoring ovcs.

In regards to anti-airs, planning to experiment with his tnt punch finisher as one. Its his only move that hits right above his head (not even his normals cover that area) and, going by how it catches opponents for combos where it looks like moves shouldn't, the dang thing must have at least 3 or 4 frames startup. So not as a good anti-air with invincibility but rather like a good fast anti-air normal like Shen and Billy's crouching C... that can be drive canceled.

[raisedbyfinches]

Joe gets access to stun combos in first place. All you need is 78% drive, opponent near a corner and to hit with a 2b.

He loses all of his insanely long pressure strings - they become much shorter because of just how punishable step kick and some other things are to gcab.
You get meter in first place... why do people seem to ignore the fact that you still get up to 3 bars and full drive? You start off in a position where your toe to toe game has less holes in it. That is why its advantageous to put him first. You get 720+ with hd and zero bar, up to 920 with 3. Putting him further back for more meter in hd combos is a bit fruitless as ex screw upper and screw upper don't differ that much in damage by the point you're using them.

Second your opponent will usually have one bar, and that can be devastating if they can guard roll and hit you for heap big damage.

Personal opinion is first. Or nothing.

But thats personal opinion.

[The Fluke]

In regards to anti-airs, planning to experiment with his tnt punch finisher as one. Its his only move that hits right above his head (not even his normals cover that area) and, going by how it catches opponents for combos where it looks like moves shouldn't, the dang thing must have at least 3 or 4 frames startup. So not as a good anti-air with invincibility but rather like a good fast anti-air normal like Shen and Billy's crouching C... that can be drive canceled.

it probably does have 3-4 frames of startup, but because you have to input 4 button presses it becomes pretty slow unless you just buffer it into random jabs during footsies, wich could work ofcourse, but i don't think it will work on reaction the way d.C's usually do sadly. I'm going to test it out if i can get my friends to play some offline aswell, because it sounds interesting.

[raisedbyfinches]

In addition to the 3-4 frames of startup you have to kara it, you're looking at double that really.
Not that its a bad thing, but when you can use jump back a/b/d (depending on their jump arc) or just get the hell outta the way its a bit risky.

Buffering it into random jabs can lead to unexpected results, the game retains inputs for such a bloody long time!


Good luck!

[The Fluke]

It may or may not work, but i'll give you a good scenario for using it; You're knocked down in the corner, the opponent neutral jumps over you, if you ex tiger kick on wake up you'll probably go under and fly away (not bad) and if you use heavy tiger kick you might well get beaten. If you input rapid punch finisher on wakeup it should come out at about optimal frames and hopefully hit the opponent before he/she can hit you.

That might work, and there might be more to it, so it's something worth getting creative with in my opinion.

[raisedbyfinches]

In that scenario I'd choose to run out of the corner and put them in it (if they are still in the air i'd press 5A to reset them too), unless you find you can walk out of the corner off it and get a full combo. All I'm saying is I'll not use it barely at all and stick to movement. Tell us if anything comes of it.

[Diavle]

it probably does have 3-4 frames of startup, but because you have to input 4 button presses it becomes pretty slow unless you just buffer it into random jabs during footsies, wich could work ofcourse, but i don't think it will work on reaction the way d.C's usually do sadly. I'm going to test it out if i can get my friends to play some offline aswell, because it sounds interesting.

Experimented some more with it and so far so good, its not perfect but neither are any of the good d.Cs (even Billy's gets stuffed). The most important thing seems to be to do the finisher with the fastest timing (the one you use in stun combos), his fist is up in the air damn near instantly this way and hits surprisingly high above his head. Effective against people jumping from the front as well.

One very interesting thing I noticed when practicing against Terry is that Joe's hurt-box is surprisingly accurate with the movement of his body. The tnt finisher moves his torso and arm forward as part of the animation and the hurt-box moves with it, it seems. So when I was testing the tnt finisher against cross ups and put Joe in a position where he would get crossed up by Terry, the crossup would whiff each time when he did the finisher even though it would cross up Joe if he was left standing neutral in that very same spot.

[The Fluke]

One very interesting thing I noticed when practicing against Terry is that Joe's hurt-box is surprisingly accurate with the movement of his body. The tnt finisher moves his torso and arm forward as part of the animation and the hurt-box moves with it, it seems. So when I was testing the tnt finisher against cross ups and put Joe in a position where he would get crossed up by Terry, the crossup would whiff each time when he did the finisher even though it would cross up Joe if he was left standing neutral in that very same spot.

Good to hear that it seems promising.

Joe moving with the attack might be pretty good if you whiff because while you would probably be left punishable, you may atleast end up a bit further away and thus in a better position than if you where hit outright. And the recovery isn't really bad either, it's probably better than whiffing your average d.C.

@raisedbyfinches. I do actually agree with you, running or even rolling are both probably more solid options. But the more options you have the better.