Claw Iori (Console)

[Tikok]

but ex oniyaki is 4f start up.

Oh, my bad then. Thanks for telling me~!

[Sharnt]

Flame Iori optimized combo require more execution (Command throw hd and empty cancels).
His qcf.C is just insane. 3f invincible move is always nice.

Did you mean his qcf~hcb+AC is insane?  Coz that's the 3F one...

I mean qcf.C is insanely fast.
And qcf hcb.AC is 3f (It beated some of my safe jump, so I fought it was invincible but I will retry I might just miss them)

[Matt Alder]

Tiny nitpicks:

I haven't looked at the frame data for both of their command overheads yet, but I would give the edge to Claw for the better overhead option. First of all, both of them are only able to follow up after their overheads with HD activation, and Claw obviously gets more damage from that.

This is not even close to true. Both claw and honoo can cancel their overheads into supers and at low levels of scaling, flame iori's supers do more damage. Players are more likely to have 1 or 2 stocks than 100% HD at just about any given point in a match so this is actually very relevant. Although I do agree that ex iori's much easier to react to.

Though it's true that you can super cancel the ovrheads, you'd be pretty foolish to do it. Both Ioris are completely punishable after super by a close normal into an HD or whatever. Many characters' meterless B&B combos from a close normal deal more damage than Iori's super. You're totally free if you do this, and you can't really hit confirm from either overhead since it's a cancel. So when you do it, it's a 50/50 guess for you, and the risk versus reward is just nowhere near good enough.

You CAN do it, but you should pretty much NEVER do it.

[Bloom of the Wolf]

Though it's true that you can super cancel the ovrheads, you'd be pretty foolish to do it. Both Ioris are completely punishable after super by a close normal into an HD or whatever. Many characters' meterless B&B combos from a close normal deal more damage than Iori's super. You're totally free if you do this, and you can't really hit confirm from either overhead since it's a cancel. So when you do it, it's a 50/50 guess for you, and the risk versus reward is just nowhere near good enough.

You CAN do it, but you should pretty much NEVER do it.

Would you call reynald foolish for all the times that he's super cancelled ryo's overhead into ryuko ranbu even against, say, bala (who lord knows would punish to the fullest extent possible) which is similarly punishable to a maiden masher but by taking the risk has put the opponent in a much worse spot in terms of health, positioning on screen or characters left? Especially in the case of getting hardknockdown with characters who have strong oki games involving safe jumps, command grabs, good normals, good crossups and lol the possibility of future overheads, all the while the number of times they have to get opened up before they run out of life has just decreased by, as you put it, one "meterless B&B combo from a close normal". which I also have to disagree with, outside of the corner bnbs of say kyo, k', andy, etc. I don't see over 279 (exiori 6b>yamisogi) coming from "many characters" without the corner and a jump-in or spending some sort of resource. I would say that putting the opponent in a position where they're more likely to make mistakes or take risks themselves is pretty damn important. Granted ryo's overhead is 17f iirc and claw and flame are 21 and 24 frame start up respectively but the whole point of overheads is to do them when they are extremely unexpected, in places where the opponent has been conditioned to block low or not press buttons. If you've ever so much as played fighting games before you should have some semblance of a clue as to how often and where you should be throwing out overheads. Remember 3rd strike universal overheads? Couldnt combo off em unless they hit towards the end of their active frames, right? That means it has to be done early during the opponents wake up to make it meaty or has to be spaced correctly far away to make it hit towards the end, giving the opponent more time to react. Universal overheads had 16f start up, to be able to combo of them you'd be giving them anywhere between 22 and 25f start up. And the animation for every single character's uoh is telegraphed enough to react to with parry imho. Despite that risk they definitely weren't seldom used. Look at melty blood. Some overheads are as slow as 30f and usually very telegraphed with a very obvious flash of light plus being an anime game theres even less incentive to sit there and take pressure than kof where there are much less options for once leave the ground. On top of that, the shield/parry system makes it even more risky if the opponent reacts with shields well. On the topic of risks outweighing rewards, if you look at dps that way it would never seem worth it to do one. Especially considering the fact that in addition to getting baited or not, theres always the possibilties of safe jumps, intentional or not. Yet that doesn't stop daigo or valle or poongko or madkof or bala from using their easily punishable/baitable reversals in any of the games that they play or have played. That's just fighting games. Good players don't take just take risks for some paltry damage. You have to look at the aspects outside of that before simply dismissing it. I think not counting something like overhead > super as viable or the idea that its something you "should pretty much never do" is beyond idiotic (that is, i believe the concept is, not you. I mean no offense by saying that and respect that you have your own opinions whether or not I agree)

EDIT: Furthermore ex iori's overhead reaches from f.d range and is cancellable into, the -6, 236236a super which is difficult even at slightly pushed back ranges to punish with a close normal into HD. Which is assuming they have 100% HD in the first place, guarantee either iori has at least 1 stock more often than an opponent has 2 drive bars.

[bopper]

just wanted to add that claw ioris overhead is def. hitconfirmable into super.

[Tikok]

you can't really hit confirm from either overhead since it's a cancel.

You definitely can. I don't know about Flame Iori's since I never tried, but Claw Iori's overhead can be hitconfirmed into super just fine since you have a lot of time to cancel after it hits.

[Matt Alder]

Alright, you're right, I shouldn't say NEVER do it, but it shouldn't be done even as often as once in ten matches. Your opponents WILL adapt at that rate, and at 21+ frames of animation, both overheads can actually be VERY easily reacted to, throwing the whole "use it unpredictably" thing out. I mean, I see people react to Claw's throw on startup, and that's only 9f. It's more than twice as fast as Claw's overhead, and nearly 3x as fast as Flame's overhead. The average human being has is able to read and react to an image in 215ms, or 12-13 frames (or 1/5 of a second), so if they get used to seeing that move and don't even have to consider the properties of it after seeing it, then they can instantly react, putting you in an extremely dangerous situation. Someone who's been playing fighting games for 20 years probably has closer to 7-10f reaction time. It means that they could see it and read the specific move twice over before it comes out.

I'll say this though, if you're able to confirm it reliably, then go for it. Claw's overhead is only -2 on block, which just means that you're punishable by only a few characters. If you can't confirm it every time, then it's really not worth it for the meager 270 damage when you're opening yourself up for a free B&B or even HD combo, considering you're at -12 on block. -12 is A LOT in XIII. When you put yourself at -12, Hwa Jai and Takuma, for example, can literally kill you from full health with 1 drive and 1 meter, no HD combo necessary. Most characters can get 500+ for 1+1. On a 50/50 mixup, it's just not worth the risk unless you're going for the kill.

After looking at all the data I may be actually changing my vote for the better overhead to Flame, simply due to the range of it. It makes it impossible to punsh at max range, even for characters with instant grabs.

[bopper]

Your numbers on reaction times are way off, no one is gonna react to a 9f throw, that is pure anticipation. Lows in tekken that are faster then 23f are usually considered unseeable. Granted there is a lot of other stuff to watch out for in that game so it makes it a bit harder. Another example is Dudleys overhead in 3s. Thats 16f i believe and unseeable as well.

However Claw Ioris OH is def. blockable on reaction haha. Tho you can sneak it in once in a while (like you said, once every ten games or so) and the fact that its confirmable into super or HD makes it pretty decent imo.

[Crimson_King15]

Well you see booper that's where you are wrong people can react to 9 frame throws. For example in AE throws are 3 frames and we use crouch teching and what not to recognize and beat that, but Goukens back throw is 5  and just a simple 2 frame difference allows you to react to said animation.

As For Iori's Overhead It's a lot easier to use than people give it credit for. A meaty Overhead on people's wake up (after a combo into ex maiden masher), also off some anti air situations if your opponent is notorious for blocking low you can time it to where you can easily hit them as the touch the ground, also Iori's overhead share part of the same start up motion as his QCB+K. So, it's actually pretty easy to work into the game because it isn't until iori cocks his arm back over his head that you truly notice the difference.

[Sharnt]

Try this :
http://www.teyah.com/milliablocker.html

You'll understand that under 20f a SPECIFIC move is impossible to react.
You can react to something faster but you can't react after identifying what's going one accurately that fast (ie you can react a jump or a movement, but you can't identify it then react under 20-25f).
If you think you can react at some things faster it's because you're minding them.

[JennyCage]

OK, I gotta ask this because it's driving me frigging nuts.  I noticed a lot of Claw players able to do this at Evo but I can't seem to pull it off with any reliability.

low B, low A, forward+A, qcb+C... 80% of the time I end up getting Maiden Masher instead of Shogetsu.  I've tried interrupting the command by adding an Up after forward+A but I still end up with Maiden Masher the majority of the time.  There's gotta be a more reliable shortcut or something... what's the secret?  I've finished that string with Akegarasu since release because I can't figure it out.

[Saitsuofleaves]

OK, I gotta ask this because it's driving me frigging nuts.  I noticed a lot of Claw players able to do this at Evo but I can't seem to pull it off with any reliability.

low B, low A, forward+A, qcb+C... 80% of the time I end up getting Maiden Masher instead of Shogetsu.  I've tried interrupting the command by adding an Up after forward+A but I still end up with Maiden Masher the majority of the time.  There's gotta be a more reliable shortcut or something... what's the secret?  I've finished that string with Akegarasu since release because I can't figure it out.

Just watch your sliding, or just go to neutral after f.A before going to qcb.  You'll have enough time.

[Crimson_King15]

OK, I gotta ask this because it's driving me frigging nuts.  I noticed a lot of Claw players able to do this at Evo but I can't seem to pull it off with any reliability.

low B, low A, forward+A, qcb+C... 80% of the time I end up getting Maiden Masher instead of Shogetsu.  I've tried interrupting the command by adding an Up after forward+A but I still end up with Maiden Masher the majority of the time.  There's gotta be a more reliable shortcut or something... what's the secret?  I've finished that string with Akegarasu since release because I can't figure it out.

Trick is Going Not pushing upback on accident. When you are starting an Offense I reccomend going to  down or Down Neutral or Down forward instead of down back. Because What I'm willing to bet you are doing is going down back>accidentally up back> then f+a> Shogetsu. This happens a lot of people doing Iori's hd corner combo with QCB+B> Dp+C.

If you go up at all of the DP+C you get command grab. So just practice it and practice it and you'll get it.

[selfReg]

I'm willing to bet that this isn't new information, but yeah j.C -> cl.C xx df.C xx dp+C -> EX Maiden Masher midscreen is ridiculously easy and fat damage. If you're close enough to the corner regular Maiden Masher will also work, again for really great damage. IIRC, it does a little more than if you would have incorporated f+AA -> qcb+C.

edit:

EX command grab near corner -> hop HD bypass -> dp+A...

people are familiar with this setup right? I think I saw it the first time when Tokido or someone tried doing it at Shadaloo Shodown, and I got refreshed on it recently while watching some Cafe Id casuals of some Claw fucking everyone up. It's really pretty tech.

[bopper]

How come i have never seen anyone do commandthrow into HD midscreen?

commandthrow, delay df.C HD delay dp.A DC qcb.D, super -> neomax is 800ish
commandthrow, delay df.C HD delay dp.A DC qcb.D DC dp.C, ex super -> neomax works for 2 bars and is around 900 iirc.

This is not too hard once you practice it for a while. Makes claw even more dangerous as an anchor, kills you of any hit. Ill try to cap it when i have time if someone needs a video reference.