Tier List

[Raynex]

Dune's impressions are a great read, but I don't think people should take it too seriously. It's only his opinion after all. Thanks for the translation BioBooster!

[Sikemopko]

I find myself agreeing with dune in everything but terry in the list, and not because I play him lol. I used him the first week that the game came out just out of familiarity but I have since dropped him for saiki to better balance my own team. Any way terry is strong imo he may be a little one dimensional but he hits hard  with a little meter an kills with a lot of meter. I think it's funny how much dune's opinion differs from frionel's. Frionel thinks terry and duo Lon are both really scary and high tier while dune calls them low tier.

It would be awesome if we could get the opinions of the guys who are playing in the NorCal vs SoCal and get an American tier list going

[Nagare_Ryouma]

I know, but I still don't think Ryo is low tier.

I like everyone thinking Ryo and Terry are low tiers, that makes it even more enjoyable to kick their asses with them, he he.

[Ben Reed]

By the time the game evolves these characters MAY be Top Tier

Yuri  
Mai >  (insane normals, crazy Neo Max I hate fanservice characters and people will use her more)

Yuri is a fairly good candidate; about the only downside to picking her (besides her voice) is her limited zoning game.

I wouldn't call Mai's normals godlike at all. Her crouch C is good, her jump B is good, and it's definitely good that she has a true c. B c. A string now to actually make it kinda meaningful to block low now. But compared to other characters AND older versions of Mai, her normals kinda suck. Most people who think they're great, I think, just haven't fought enough Mai players to learn her dead zones.

That said, her NeoMAX is legit. If anything, it's actually shifted my opinion of her from runaway battery to more of a semi-user or even anchor character. For full drive and 2-3 bars, you can take 50% life from full screen for any whiff less safe than a jab. Doesn't help her damage deficiency or bad defense, but it does something the rest of Mai is kinda poorly equipped to do -- truly scare the opponent out of hitting buttons.

I usually put her 2nd now and use Kyo for battery. Overall I think she's mid-tier at best, probably lower-mid. Not a death sentence in a game like this, but she's still an uphill battle against anyone with serious Mai experience.

[Raynex]

By the time the game evolves these characters MAY be Top Tier

Yuri 
Mai >  (insane normals, crazy Neo Max I hate fanservice characters and people will use her more)

Yuri is a fairly good candidate; about the only downside to picking her (besides her voice) is her limited zoning game.

I wouldn't call Mai's normals godlike at all. Her crouch C is good, her jump B is good, and it's definitely good that she has a true c. B c. A string now to actually make it kinda meaningful to block low now. But compared to other characters AND older versions of Mai, her normals kinda suck. Most people who think they're great, I think, just haven't fought enough Mai players to learn her dead zones.

That said, her NeoMAX is legit. If anything, it's actually shifted my opinion of her from runaway battery to more of a semi-user or even anchor character. For full drive and 2-3 bars, you can take 50% life from full screen for any whiff less safe than a jab. Doesn't help her damage deficiency or bad defense, but it does something the rest of Mai is kinda poorly equipped to do -- truly scare the opponent out of hitting buttons. I usually put her 2nd now and use Kyo for battery.

Mai's normals are NOT godlike? Please, sir, explain to me whats so average about st.D. It plows through everything! Her st.C is like Honda's st.H in SF4. After throwing a fan or something, it covers so much jump space and is completely disjointed (her fan isn't part of her hurtbox). st.D alone is enough honestly. That thing is straight up ridiculous for both AA and grounded poking.

[Ben Reed]

s. C is good on the outside, but it's uncomfortably slow at its minimum range (where you risk the very awkward transition to close C and the different timing it requires to AA; hit it early expecting a far C, and you get a too-early close C that misses its own active frames and plows right into the opponent's). Safe on block, but the low pushback means they're still uncomfortably close to Mai, and none of her advancing (walk-up to intercept), retreating (walk back/jump back), and stand-your-ground (vertical jump/stand still and bait) options seem good at that range to me. Half the time when I try for a s. C that I swear will win, I get clowned by something stupid like Shen early hop j. CD.

She has a very hard time winning trades to me where C is concerned, and the move seems like a waste pre-emptively. At that range, unless they're painfully stupid and I know they'll land on it, I'd rather do s. D or make them whiff with anti-air c. B.

s. D I have slightly fewer complaints about because of the slightly superior horizontal range. Harder to get a close D, and you don't feel so bad for not getting a bite preemptively because you outrange a lot of lows and the pushback is a bit more comfortable. It's good but not godlike. That's what I'm saying.

And mostly I'm thinking about her air normals when I say her normals are oversold. Her air normals have always been one of the biggest things she's had going for her on a fundamental level -- get a fan safely on screen and lock off air space with her fast jump and fast attacks. Her jump arc and gravity are up to the task, but most of her air normals aren't in 13. Much harder to clip limbs now unless you just don't give a fuck (a bad philosophy with a low-return character like Mai IMO) and hit a button ASAP. Waiting even a little to play hitbox games gets you creamed more often than not by people just thrashing in the air.

The only trick to beating Mai is just getting in, and her idiot-checks while zoning aren't particularly fearsome unless she has NeoMAX. Early hop attacks own Mai IMO. Just respect her fireballs getting in, put her back against the wall, and soon enough you'll be close enough to squeeze the life out of her. Take the trades, her reversals are limited and expensive, and you're still right in her face where her anti-airs are crap. One good combo and you have a great lead on her; you need to do something REALLY stupid for a low-damage character like Mai to come back on you.

Mai's bullshit is mostly useful against the inexperienced IMO. She clowns impatient players, but loses badly to people who don't throw their controllers whenever a fan hits them. She's fun and she's still one of my favorites, but she's definitely not that great.

[BioBooster]

Dune's impressions are a great read, but I don't think people should take it too seriously. It's only his opinion after all. Thanks for the translation BioBooster!

No problem

Yeah, he goes out of his way to say it is based on his current opinion of the game and that he may have some be missing/overlooking some of the details for some of the characters.

[BioBooster]

I think it's funny how much dune's opinion differs from frionel's. Frionel thinks terry and duo Lon are both really scary and high tier while dune calls them low tier.
It would be awesome if we could get the opinions of the guys who are playing in the NorCal vs SoCal and get an American tier list going

Out of curiosity, do we have any post release impressions from Frionel in English? I would love to hear what he has to say - he did an amazing job analyzing console changes pre-release and his chr opinions where quite interesting/entertaining.

Totally agree, it would be great to have the same from US top players.

[t3h mAsTarOth...!]

Mai's normals are NOT godlike? Please, sir, explain to me whats so average about st.D. It plows through everything! Her st.C is like Honda's st.H in SF4. After throwing a fan or something, it covers so much jump space and is completely disjointed (her fan isn't part of her hurtbox). st.D alone is enough honestly. That thing is straight up ridiculous for both AA and grounded poking.

lol... you like my Mai don't you? we both got our main bitches there... you got King and i got Mai... haha...

on a real note whatever Ben Reed said is true... Mai is mid-tier at best... with only 2 reversal options... one is EX DM and the other one is Neomax... if Mai gets cornered with no meter then she's in BIG trouble...

but... and there is a butt (with the addition of giant BOOBS)... Mai is very tricky... most of the time it might look like she's just throwing things out there... which she is... but it is all to bait you... pre-XIII Mai was very safe and formulaic... which is why i never played her... XIII Mai is the complete opposite... she constantly takes risks *at least the way i like to play her* and in return she gets to frustrate you to no end...

yes unless i corner you with Mai, i'm not going to land any big damage on you... but at the same time she is great at building meter... she has no problem getting in or running away... so IMO if you like a fun + risky character + love blowing meter (like me) to do random Neomax (obviously make sure it'll connect and kill) and make everyone go WTF then play Mai...

[JennyCage]

King > everyone.  You heard it here first.

[Sikemopko]

I think it's funny how much dune's opinion differs from frionel's. Frionel thinks terry and duo Lon are both really scary and high tier while dune calls them low tier.
It would be awesome if we could get the opinions of the guys who are playing in the NorCal vs SoCal and get an American tier list going

Out of curiosity, do we have any post release impressions from Frionel in English? I would love to hear what he has to say - he did an amazing job analyzing console changes pre-release and his chr opinions where quite interesting/entertaining.

Totally agree, it would be great to have the same from US top players.

I was going off his opinions from the elive cast. I would be interested to hear what he has to say now

[ForTheViolence]

It's too early to speak upon this. How ever its not too early to talk about a characters strong and weak points. This tier "list" crap has to stop not just in kof. Personally I think that this game is pretty well balanced.

[Ben Reed]

1. At some point, it can't be "too early" for tiers anymore. The game has had a full year to mature in arcade, and while there have been shakeups for console, it shouldn't take too long for the dust to settle and context to become clearer.

2. Tier lists are not useless or meaningless. When developed properly (by people who know what they're talking about) and considered in full context (individual matchups, ideal conditions vs. practical conditions), they are a useful tool for general evaluation of how uncommon matchups or matchups between unknown players are likely to play out.

They are the starting point for figuring out a matchup. They are NOT the totality of theory or practice. Nobody except idiots operate under this presumption. No actual, intelligent player capable of high-class competition abandons all individual thought as soon as the latest tier list is posted.

3. No matter how balanced a game is, there WILL be tiers, unless the game has only one character.

The only real question is how stratified they are -- how far beneath the high-tier characters are the low-tier characters? Are they just kind of underwhelming compared to the higher tier, or are they seriously deficient in basic competitive competencies?

From all indications, this game is still in excellent shape in the console version, as the fundamental design of the game (universal subsystems + 3 characters and variable order to offset individual bad matchups) keeps lower-tier characters much closer to the power of higher-tier characters than many other games. Putting Mai on your team might be a handicap, but it's nowhere near as wince-inducing as picking, say, Dan or Hakan in SF4, simply because of the different design philosophies in the game and its characters. Victory is still a realistic possibility without a gigantic player-skill mismatch in your favor.

[Proto Cloud]

I'd say I'd give it at least 3 months before we can start believing in the tier list. There's too much unexplored yet and way too little matchups gone through to make a proper judgement anyway.

[Rex Dart]

No amount of argument is ever going to stop people from making tier lists for a fighting game.

If you think it's three months too early, or two weeks too early, or whatever; I suggest ignoring this thread until that time.

From this point forward, PLEASE avoid all discussion of the pros and cons of tier lists. People are allowed to discuss them if they want to.