Balance issues and constructive suggestions

[SAB-CA]

DarKaoZ: Heck, watching the vids of those Athena's again, renews my desire to play her too, haha. EX Shining Crystal Bit is awesome, Psycho Sword -> cancel combos are so fluid...

And I love the fact that even the old vids of this game offer good matches to watch... really speaks for how much potential the game as a whole has.

I can agree a bit on the scaling stuff too... it seems to affect some characters too heavily. A small change to how it affects certain characters moves would probably help a good deal.

Rex Dart: Eh, can't entirely agree. SNKP said each chara has something like 500/600 frames in XII, so we can assume in this game, with NM, new normals, new DMs, EX moves, taunts, and time out poses, that they've probably be upgraded to something like 700 frames per chara. Whatever new characters they make, to be complete, have to meet this heightened number.

So, lets say they made 5 characters worth of work for console release. 3,500 frames of work. If they cut 1 character out (4 new charas), they can spread those 700 saved frames to give each of the old 31 characters about 22 new frames each. For some characters, that would mean a new move, maybe. For others, it could mean new taunts, a new winpose, stun / time out animations, a special VS intro, an "alt" costume like Raiden's facemask, anything. And not every character would need as much new as others, so that's even more frames to those who need them. Work on the old characters already has style and base-chara-model made, so it's quicker (and possibly cheaper) to produce, too.

SNKP states they don't wanna p'o the arcade operators, so smaller changes are probably pretty likely.
And they did such a great job with stuffing the arcade game with new things at the last min (like Leona's new DM, revisions to Neomax moves, taunts, etc), that I wouldn't be too suprised for them to do such a thing for the console release.

asociale: -nod- Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from. It's like watching 20 second long fireball wars! It's annoying to either be under diminished control, or NO control at all, for that long. But that's why I love the fact that this game offers cancels, NM, and EX along with the insanity of HD juggles. You can never control your opponents playstyle in games like this, but I'm glad the options let you choose what YOUR style is, without one seeming weaker than the other. I really think the fact that various characters have varied lengths of combos helps diversify the 31 character cast well.

I hope they maintain such diversity with any new characters added, too. It would such for every character they add to be a 20-second-combo machine, haha. Also need some characters doing the same amount of damage in 4 or 5 powerful hits!

[LouisCipher]

It looks like every character can do something, so I don't think a lot of buffs are in order. Maybe give Clark his Frankensteiner back.

Other than that, just nerf K', Raiden, and Liz.

[MUSOLINI]

.Other than that, just nerf K', Raiden, and Liz.

you forgot kula.

[LouisCipher]

I thought she was very beatable? She could do the same shit as she could in the other games. Maybe give her Ice Breath more recovery so she can be punished? That way she can't lock you down in the corner as much.

They wouldn't have to do a lot to balance the game, correct me if I'm and feel free to:

Just add additional recovery to K's Flame so it's not so easy for him to lock you down in the corner. Nerf the damage he does by a bit.

Raiden: Just nerf the amount of guard crush and damage his dropkick does. He should keep his Drop kick combos, just nerf the damage on them.

Liz: Shouldn't be able to link Super off of a trade Anti Air. Maybe make her Anti Air a little less safe.

You don't want to nerf a character too much, or else you get Sean from 3rd Strike.

[Aenthin]

Changing ice breath's recovery? The problem is with Ray Spin, not Diamond Breath. It was Ray Spin that allowed her to juggle for a long time with enough drive gauge and power stocks. Giving Diamond Breath more recovery will just encourage people to use the same Ray Spin juggles all over again.

[Kane317]

Changing ice breath's recovery? The problem is with Ray Spin, not Diamond Breath. It was Ray Spin that allowed her to juggle for a long time with enough drive gauge and power stocks. Giving Diamond Breath more recovery will just encourage people to use the same Ray Spin juggles all over again.

To put it in perspective, her Ray Spin is so good now (D and Ex versions in particular) that there's really no need to use her stocks for any DM, when's the last time you saw her do a DM (similar to Chin, his Ex moves are so damn good that his DM is kinda moot).

[Delta]

I don't know why people think Kula is so strong, her main strenght seems to be , like previously said, her Ray Spin, and even with that , she needs a decent amount of power stocks to be really dangerous with the EX version of that move (same with Elisabeth and her DM).

Unless i'm missing something important (like damage they deal or something) i don't see much problem with Kula and Elisabeth.

Oh well, i haven't played the game yet, so these are just my 2 cents.

[Kane317]

I don't know why people think Kula is so strong, her main strenght seems to be , like previously said, her Ray Spin, and even with that , she needs a decent amount of power stocks to be really dangerous with the EX version of that move (same with Elisabeth and her DM).

Unless i'm missing something important (like damage they deal or something) i don't see much problem with Kula and Elisabeth.

Oh well, i haven't played the game yet, so these are just my 2 cents.

In short, two things just the top of my head, builds meter real easy and simple, almost brain dead, damaging combos (Liz can do 50% with just one DM).  

Kula, like K', has high priority juggle starters namely her Ex Ray Spin that can juggle from almost everywhere due to the horizontal carry.  Another amazingly easy starter is d.B, s.B, Ex Ray Spin -->  Since she has long chainable and cancelable d.Bs, factoring that she's a small character (easy to mistime a jump in against her and eat a d.B), her Ex Ray Spin is that much more of a threat.

Liz, besides of the BnB combo you see in every video she can: a) start a combo with her Ex counter and b) mix it up with a command throw starter, c) build meter like no other (qcf+P spam), d) cross you up with j.B or e) d.B, d.A starter and don't forget her f) Ex qcf P does some juicy guard crush damage.  To add insult to injury, she can always Neomax you with a counter Neomax...talk about overkill.  Short of a projectile, she has every tool in the standard KOF book.

Remember, most top tier characters don't possess one secret trick up their sleeve like Raiden, it's almost always an arsenal of tools that make them deadly.

[MUSOLINI]

thats one of the big plus points about you kane, you actually see the obvious like i (and many othes) do. not to diss you other guys, but did you actually see vids of 13 play? how often did you even see kula use ice breath? i have never played this game (like many others), but some things are painfully obvious just from vids tbh. again dont take it like a diss, just stating the obvious if youve either seen vids or played the game.

[LouisCipher]

So Liz is basically OP because she can link almost anything into her Super for massive damage.

Raiden is OP because of Guard Crush his Drop Kick does, and the insane damage he can do off of a charged Drop Kick Combo with Super.

If my understanding is correct K' and Kula are OP because of their juggle ability. If that's so how would you nerf their juggles? Nerf the damage (a simple fix) or take away some of their links?

[SAB-CA]

Eh, I think I'll take a stab at Rebalancing Kula:

Could make it so dwn+B is only Drive cancellable. Without Drive, could link dwn+B -> dwn+A for normal cancels. Would at least make it SOMEWHAT challenging to her her best links, and would limit the amount of juggles after the EX Spin.

Weak Rayspin -> f+B should lead to a knockdown. f+D should lead to a SC-able juggle into Freeze Execution or Edge (Or Neomax), but not into anything else, outside HD mode. (HD would allow you to cancel into other moves earlier.)

Strong Rayspin -> f+B should only rejuggle high enough for a weak Crow Bites. Make it so Strong Crowbites is the only one that can be DC'd into EX Rayspin, leave EX Followups as strong as they are now (allowing similiar combos to what she has now.) Strong Ray.S f+D followup should lead to juggle on standing opponents, but not on aerial ones.

These changes could lead to:
A.) More limited Rayspin Combos, while still letting her get most of them with the use of EX meter. Non- EX combos should be more damaging when ended with DM (which requires drive cancel, if taken to the furthest hits).

B.) Perhaps more cancelling into EX Ice breath, causing her to automatically do combos that require more spacing, and have less high-flying juggle stuff. Should give her more reason to use the full range of her moves.

C.) She wouldn't be building as much meter in no-ex juggles, thus, she'd have to manage the building better.

I wouldn't wanna take away ALL the potential for her newer juggles you see (I.E, wouldn't wanna turn her exactly to 2K2 or XI Kula), so I think it's worth keeping the new juggles in EX, while adding more strategy to the strengths of her normal Rayspin (much like K' Triggers have different properties.)

And they DID take the time to give her 2 DMs, you'd think they'd actually... wanna make them both useful...

[MUSOLINI]

not bad, cept for the first part? down B shouldn't take drive to cancel imo. rest is actually pretty good imo. B finisher leeds to knockdown (unless drive cancelled) and both rayspin and finisher together should make the same amount of bar and drive as it would do if you didnt use the finisher, thus halve the amount you gain now.

honestly, if i was @ snkp i would have been able to nerf the top 4 without raping them in a sinlge hour, thats how easy it is imo. wtf is up with snkp?

[DarKaoZ]

I think SNKP will definitely rebalance some of the characters in the actual XIII cast, so I'm not that worried about them. I know they will, because they are most likely to adding new characters to the game with all this time. What I'm most worried is that any of the new characters will be either OP or really weak in fear of making them OP. If this happens, I really hope SNKP puts time to make a rebalance/bug-fix patch for the new characters a few months after.

[MUSOLINI]

I think SNKP will definitely rebalance some of the characters in the actual XIII cast, so I'm not that worried about them. I know they will, because they are most likely to adding new characters to the game with all this time. What I'm most worried is that any of the new characters will be either OP or really weak in fear of making them OP. If this happens, I really hope SNKP puts time to make a rebalance/bug-fix patch for the new characters a few months after.

i dont think there are any weak characters in 13 thanx to the game system and thanx to things like DC and ex moves and such. you guys dont know how glad i was seeing these things in 13 (i wanted dc and ex moves in kof since kof 96 lol).

[DarKaoZ]

Well since I don't see any Goro, Hwa or Vice in videos, I can assume they are weak or need some improvement.

But when I mentioned the problem with new characters balance, is based on the experience with SF4 and BlazBlue series. When they add new characters they do tend to be weak or overpowered in most cases. Is rare when you get a balanced fighter out of the new cast, specially if they are characters which didn't go through a loketest.

But I hope SNKP follows what ArcSystem is doing, in releasing several balance patches of the game to keep the game balanced. Unfortunately some of those changes tend to be unnecessary.