Joe Higashi (Console)

[Diavle]

Yeah, i've thought of that first statement aswell, that golden heel is safe. The D version is just barely negative on block, but as far as spacing i think the only thing you can do to compensate for that is space so that you hit with the very edge of it so you don't land right smack next to your opponent. The B version is allways bad on block, but hopefully the opponent isn't confident enough to hit you with a far normal and risk cancelling.

I really don't find golden heel to be a very good move outside of combos unless you have some setup or really expect the opponent to jump. Not that it's terrible or anything but it's no crack shot.

I'd agree with you save for the fact that I've had people spam it at me and it works surprisingly well as a Crack Shot for anti-airing purposes. The light and heavy versions have different trajectories so its good to mix them up. And if you do hit them in the air then you can land a solid follow-up to juggle, anywhere on the screen (corner turns into rape, of course). The EX version is a great way to get in and acts as a jump-in as well since Joe is positive enough on hit to continue comboing. Can also be used for frame traps since it doesn't combo off of normals. I have yet to delve deeper with this move overall though, been primarily mastering the slash kick so far.

But like you said, it, like the slash kick, is very dependent on spacing. If you space them right then they are excellent moves (the slash kick especially is one of the safest negative on block moves in the game if spaced right) but if you space them wrong then you might eat something nasty.

[desmond_kof]

A well-spaced Golden Heel can be safe on block, but it's still fairly safe except for command throws. You can use D Golden Heel to apply pressure, but it's always best to space it and be at a distance to keep applying pressure than to forfeit pressure completely at the end of a special. NOTE: The opponent must be blocking. Df+B is special cancellable so you can do it from that.

Noticed it says the above in the wiki, that's false. Joe can't cancel his slide into anything but Bakuretsuken outside of HD.

Thanks for pointing that out. I removed that statement.

[The Fluke]

@Diavle; Yeah, i personally use golden heel less than i should, but i stand by that it should mainly be used for reads and set ups because most of the time slash kick is both safer and tighter as a frame trap though the pay off for scoring an anti air golden heel is obviously much better.

I used to use EX golden heel every now and then, but since i play him as my first, i really don't care to spend meter on it anymore. Sure there's a chance for a good payoff, but you can be hit right out of it if you're opponent isn't scared enough to respect your authorota so to say. With that in mind, i'd probably just go for a hop or run in instead.

[Diavle]

Thanks for pointing that out. I removed that statement.

Thanks man.

@Diavle; Yeah, i personally use golden heel less than i should, but i stand by that it should mainly be used for reads and set ups because most of the time slash kick is both safer and tighter as a frame trap though the pay off for scoring an anti air golden heel is obviously much better.

I used to use EX golden heel every now and then, but since i play him as my first, i really don't care to spend meter on it anymore. Sure there's a chance for a good payoff, but you can be hit right out of it if you're opponent isn't scared enough to respect your authorota so to say. With that in mind, i'd probably just go for a hop or run in instead.

I agree that it shouldn't be spammed but it should still be regularly used imo. At the very least it adds variation to your pressure and covers vertical ground that the slash kick doesn't. People can jump the slash kick but the heel will catch them so it should limit their options for evasion/movement.

Probably of not much use except the occasional mixup but the B heel crosses up a crouch opponent after a single light attack, on block or hit.

As for meter, haven't used Joe on point in a serious match since we last spoke tbh. He always sits in the second or anchor positions now, the guy is just too damn good with meter and is wasted on point imo (especially if you are using him as a battery and trying to conserve meter).

[raisedbyfinches]

As for meter, haven't used Joe on point in a serious match since we last spoke tbh. He always sits in the second or anchor positions now, the guy is just too damn good with meter and is wasted on point imo.

Just this bit.

You can get stun with 70% drive and 0 meter. Off c.B. So it ends up doing 700 damage and both you and your opponent build loads of meter (unless you go for the restun) but that's hardly a problem unless your opponent is hwa or takuma and you get hit
He also loses huge amounts of pressure as his blockstrings have to be kept really short so its harder to make people 'respect your authorota'. No bars and HD anywhere on screen you can do 700+.

There's nothing that's gonna stop me changing him up from point.

The friendly challenge: post some videos of yourself playing so you can try to change my mind

[Diavle]

As for meter, haven't used Joe on point in a serious match since we last spoke tbh. He always sits in the second or anchor positions now, the guy is just too damn good with meter and is wasted on point imo.

Just this bit.

You can get stun with 70% drive and 0 meter. Off c.B. So it ends up doing 700 damage and both you and your opponent build loads of meter (unless you go for the restun) but that's hardly a problem unless your opponent is hwa or takuma and you get hit
He also loses huge amounts of pressure as his blockstrings have to be kept really short so its harder to make people 'respect your authorota'. No bars and HD anywhere on screen you can do 700+.

There's nothing that's gonna stop me changing him up from point.

The friendly challenge: post some videos of yourself playing so you can try to change my mind

I won't post vids because I can't (nor do I care to, whatever works for you works for you) but I will ask just one question of you:

What do you use meter and drive with him for?

Don't get fancy, just mention the exact things you use them for in a real match the most.

[raisedbyfinches]

I have up to 3 bars and full hd in first place.

* Without any I get buttons into either a safe jump or reset pressure - midscreen there's not really and benefit to using meter in combos other than ranbu, only HD. It doesn't take that long at all to get HD.

* With enough HD I either do a stun combo to build 2 bars and burn 1 (corner) or do an hd combo for either 0,1 or 3 bars as ex screw upper doesn't really give much damage over the non-ex one in hd. The 3 bar HD combo gives my opponent 60% drive and 1.4 meter. Which is 920 damage for vastly less gain to my opponent than a stun combo. You build HD quickly anyway.

* gcab or gccd

* The very occasional ex tiger knee or ex hurricane. There are nearly always other options that are equally as viable.

Saying that he's 'wasted' on point is fallacious, especially when your only argument is 'he's good with meter' without saying in what way or counting what you lose when your opponent has it.

I'm done arguing this point with you though, play him wherever you want. Ignore friendly challenges and be argumentative. The question should probably also have been 'what can you do without meter then?'.

I'd rather get back to pure informational posts anyway.

[Diavle]

I have up to 3 bars and full hd in first place.

* Without any I get buttons into either a safe jump or reset pressure - midscreen there's not really and benefit to using meter in combos other than ranbu, only HD. It doesn't take that long at all to get HD.

* With enough HD I either do a stun combo to build 2 bars and burn 1 (corner) or do an hd combo for either 0,1 or 3 bars as ex screw upper doesn't really give much damage over the non-ex one in hd. The 3 bar HD combo gives my opponent 60% drive and 1.4 meter. Which is 920 damage for vastly less gain to my opponent than a stun combo. You build HD quickly anyway.

* gcab or gccd

* The very occasional ex tiger knee or ex hurricane. There are nearly always other options that are equally as viable.

Saying that he's 'wasted' on point is fallacious, especially when your only argument is 'he's good with meter' without saying in what way or counting what you lose when your opponent has it.

I'm done arguing this point with you though, play him wherever you want. Ignore friendly challenges and be argumentative. The question should probably also have been 'what can you do without meter then?'.

I'd rather get back to pure informational posts anyway.

So mostly HD and stun? Yeah, thought as much.

But yeah, lets stop. We have different approaches to the character and that's that.

[The Fluke]

Probably of not much use except the occasional mixup but the B heel crosses up a crouch opponent after a single light attack, on block or hit.

I think i was the first to post that in this thread actually. Not that that matters, just wanted to be a glory hog. The problem, as you probably know is that B golden heel is very negative on block and infront or behind your still right smack in there, the opponent should be able to punish it with little effort even on hit.

I think we do pretty much agree on golden heel though, so moving on.

I've recently realised just how good Joe's s.D is. It's got range and makes f.B hitconfirmable, dunno if there's all that much to say, but you can for example do; d.B d.B, if the opponent blocks you do s.D and get another chance at a hitconfirm and the damage will actually be even better if it hits. Kind of like Ryo's fantastic s.D, except much slower though with the huge benefit of being able to cancel much later and still combo off of it.

Joe just gets better.

[Diavle]

I think i was the first to post that in this thread actually. Not that that matters, just wanted to be a glory hog. The problem, as you probably know is that B golden heel is very negative on block and infront or behind your still right smack in there, the opponent should be able to punish it with little effort even on hit.

Oh, I did it by mistake. The glory is all yours though :p

But yeah, its not very useful.

I've recently realised just how good Joe's s.D is. It's got range and makes f.B hitconfirmable, dunno if there's all that much to say, but you can for example do; d.B d.B, if the opponent blocks you do s.D and get another chance at a hitconfirm and the damage will actually be even better if it hits. Kind of like Ryo's fantastic s.D, except much slower though with the huge benefit of being able to cancel much later and still combo off of it.

Joe just gets better.

Loving his s.D as well.

Isn't d.B, d.A, s.D the better frame trap though? Crouching jabs seem to be the most positive of normals on block generally speaking in this game. Very useful and better than just going into f+B  all the time.

Its also fantastic for karacanceling.

[raisedbyfinches]

Use both.

Different gaps ftw.

[The Fluke]

Isn't d.B, d.A, s.D the better frame trap though? Crouching jabs seem to be the most positive of normals on block generally speaking in this game. Very useful and better than just going into f+B  all the time.

Its also fantastic for karacanceling.

as finches said, if you intend from the get go to go for the frame trap, mix em up. But the thing is d.B*2 is a better hitconfirm than d.B d.A because it has better reach and it's hard to guarantee that you get all the way in there after a run in.

[TZSendo04]

I have a combo question with joe. The corner combo that consists of the bakuretsuken followed by the halfmoon kick and tiger kick. I play on pad and it's difficult for me to get the  PPPP consistently out to make the juggle work even when i buffer it during the tiger kick. Is there a trick to getting the bakuretsuken out or anything, and im not sure if holding the attack button buffer trick can happen here or what. Please help

[Diavle]

Man, option select and situational  damage is so good with Joe. Feels like the guy has a hundred and one ways to land damage.

Use both.

Different gaps ftw.

Isn't d.B, d.A, s.D the better frame trap though? Crouching jabs seem to be the most positive of normals on block generally speaking in this game. Very useful and better than just going into f+B  all the time.

Its also fantastic for karacanceling.

as finches said, if you intend from the get go to go for the frame trap, mix em up. But the thing is d.B*2 is a better hitconfirm than d.B d.A because it has better reach and it's hard to guarantee that you get all the way in there after a run in.

Good point.

I have a combo question with joe. The corner combo that consists of the bakuretsuken followed by the halfmoon kick and tiger kick. I play on pad and it's difficult for me to get the  PPPP consistently out to make the juggle work even when i buffer it during the tiger kick. Is there a trick to getting the bakuretsuken out or anything, and im not sure if holding the attack button buffer trick can happen here or what. Please help

I do it on pad too, the buffer trick does work but most importantly you should be keeping count of your button presses.

[marchefelix]

So I'm confused.

Can Joe follow up his slide with other specials/EX specials other than Bakuretsuken?

I see in this combo, he does EX Hurricane Upper after the slide (at 9:30)

KoF XIII : 常識的に考えて Community Combo Movie (4)